The Technique Thread

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Simon, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Just to keep this thread going, let me throw in another clip here. All comment are welcome.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htJsvJQocDE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htJsvJQocDE[/ame]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  2. Metal_Kitty

    Metal_Kitty Valued Member

    I'm not sure how I feel about that one ^^

    It seems like they've taken principles from something else but haven't applied it correctly.
     
  3. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    I think I like that, haven't seen it before but it looks like something that could happen when plan 'A' fails and you find yourself just doing something else... and it works ;)
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I like it too. Not exactly how I would execute it, but that is stylistic only.

    Looks like a transition to a single leg after an initial control or off-balance attempt. The circular/spiral energy is similar to something I seen in Ju Jutsu, Aikido and Dumog. You can the same technique from a front armdrag or double wrist control
     
  5. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    @Fish

    Having trouble finding a training partner or someone to demonstrate on who is willing to tap (yesterday’s incident).
    But I’ll explain in words.
    I’m pretty keen to get a video up.

    Entries:
    Lots of stuff flows off from boxing and thai quite well like patting down jabs, crazy monkey, rushing, catching bounce back from teeps/push kicks.
    Side entries are a tiny bit of pre planning with stepping off angle slightly and turning at the last possible moment

    If you can parry strikes and hit back then you can step in for a clinch or tie.
    Fundamentally, entries are modified strikes. Clinches and ties should be used as dynamic transitions (the only reason people get tied up is because they didnt act fast enough or their opponent is competent at grabbing back)

    If you're smaller a lot of clinches and ties wont work very well (double unders wont get under the armpits, thai clinches are too high) so you have 3 options:
    Get the opponent to change level before entering
    And/Or
    Go for their hips/leg
    Or
    Arm Grabs instead of clinching

    Alternatively Irimi/stepping off is a good option.
    You use the rule of 2 for feints, same as striking: so if you fake a jab twice, you better have a plan by the second one or he’s gonna sock you.
    Similarly you can back off one or two steps but by the second step you need to be ready with something because they will start to close in on you thinking that you’re scared and back pedaling.

    By that second step back let them rush in and step out to the side and turn – from there you can throw a round house, shoot in for a side single or double leg or close the distance for a clinch without the danger of getting hit.

    There are some finer point on pre-empting and keep a foot outside of them to facilitate the turn but that’s best done on video.

    Distractions:
    This requires more experience to develop tactics.
    I think of it as chess, using pawns to threaten the queen (small annoying things like a shoulder to the face or a fore arm in the collar bone) to distract from the danger of you trapping king (putting on a submission).
    Same rule of 2 and footwork is important but like everything, only practice guarantees success
     
  6. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Many techniques do rely on force as a set up. Take for example Simon's old school two handed version of the figure four. Having two hands on the opponents arm allows you to force it to where you want it to go.

    Techniques often use mechanical advantage to force the limb into position. Either through exploiting a weakness in the opponents position. Our though using leverage to maximise the force applied by the defender.

    Even techniques that are applied through stealth and subtlety can benefit from the judicious application of brute force. A smack in the face is an excellent distraction before translating into an arm-lock.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Has anybody had a go at applying these techniques? I found myself a partner/victim and had a bash. Still no progress with controlling the elbow in Simmon's figure four, but I have found that it is surprisingly easy to do Hannibal's shoulder lock. I've been setting it up from a bait and switch. I go for a straight arm technique then translate into the figure four if they bend their elbow. However Hannibal, I could really benefit from a more detailed description of how you do it as shown.

    You know who, do you think you could go through how your first technique works? I could not see enough from the video to understand what I should be doing.

    Thanks again to all for sharing. If I can work out how to make it available I shall put some stuff up to add to the discussion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  8. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i get that, but there's a slight problem to the brute force angle in the part where i'm five feet tall, have tiny baby hands, and weight 58 kilos ;). not exactly easy to get good leverage that way :p (although trying is always fun)

    maybe i'll just go do a combat sport with weight classes and pick on people my size :evil:
     
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I think you are talking about the "front cut". You can do the following steps.

    - Right kick at your opponent's groin (or knee joint).
    - Left hand downward parry his leading right arm.
    - Right hand punch at his face (so far this is just the groin kick, face punch combo).
    - When his right arm spin with your downward parry, you left arm wrap his right arm (This is the most important step. Without leading arm wrapping, the rest of the moves won't work).
    - When he tries to use his left arm to block your right face punch, you pull your punch back, let his block to pass, you then use your right hand to control his neck.
    - You step in left leg,
    - hook your right leg behind his right leading leg.
    - Drop your right foot,
    - Step in your left foot and use your forward momentum to take him down backward.
    - You then smash the back of his head on the ground with your throat control (hope this can finish the fight),
    - drop your knee on his chest,
    - Remain your throat control.
    - Apply an arm bar on his right arm if needed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You have to give before you can take. When you apply force, your opponent will respond (resist or yield), if he

    - resists, you can borrow his resistance force, add your own force, and reverse your attack direction.
    - yields, you can borrow his yielding force, add your own force, and still attack him the same direction.

    A simple example is when

    - you try to pull him forward.
    - your opponent resists (B),
    - you borrow his resistance, add your pushing force (A), and
    - take him down backward (A + B > A).

    IMO, both locking and throwing are using exactly the same principle. If your opponent tries to bend his arm (B) and you try to straight his arm (A), that's force against force (A - B < A). Not the best approach.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Will someone put up a clip? Please don't let this thread die.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    The next technique I do will be the uppercut, but not for another week or so.

    I'd like to see others joining in though.
     
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Singular moves or combinations?
     
  14. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I was going to do a singular more, showing how to drive the hips, rather than wind up the arms.

    I could do a right left if you think it would be better.
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Maybe a singular then how it would be used in combination?

    I would do a video but I can't no good explain stuff.
     
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Simon originally suggested both posting techniques and discussing them to death.

    Hannibal, It looks as though it might be possible for the partner to escape the shoulder lock by rotating their body towards you. Could they?

    If so what would you do to stop them? The obvious thought would be to go straight into the take-down or face-plant without giving them time to turn into you. But I was wondering if there is a more subtle way of controlling them?
     
  17. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I agree with you 100% and disagree about 15%. (Solely for the purposes of discussion).

    The 15% disagreement is just to point out that one must always consider the person as a whole.

    Consider if you have a persons balance but they are escaping the lock. Do you reverse the lock which may in the process return them to balance? Or do you abandon the lock and continue to attack their balance in the same direction?

    Take the arm bar in Simon's original clip. The opponent has begun to escape the arm bar. You can go for the figure 4 as they stand up from the arm bar. or you could kick the opponents knee inwards so that they fall towards you and re-establish the arm bar.

    Either approach works, however I would personally go for the latter as I am more confident that I could kick out their balance than i am that i could put the figure four on effectively. I would also suggest that it is lower risk to me as it does not allow the opponent to regain their balance.
     
  18. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    If a guy tries to force his way back up, you can pretty much discount him being trained so that's that. There are armbar escape options (bent elbow into armbar reversal, forward roll…) but they don't involve forcing your way back to an upright position.
    In order to fully recover his balance, the guy would need to either be very strong and/or on drugs and insensitive to pain; or I would have to be half asleep myself because I'm never going to stand there while armbarring him. It's either face-meet-knee time as his head initially comes down or I'm driving the armbar down to the ground as I'm applying it (or whatever option choose to further control before he even starts resisting). If for some reason he does manage to resist and the armbar isn’t working like it should, determining when/if it’s time to switch to something else will depend on to what degree he’s recovered (from a balance or a pain standpoint). I'm going to have to gauge at what point I need to abort and switch to something else - maybe the figure 4 armlock (I call it shoulder lock), maybe a leg reap – always using his backward momentum. After I made the decision to abort, I’m still going to force the armbar for a second to set him up and then switch quickly to whatever technique.
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The joint locking is used by the police in Taiwan. Since excessive force is not allowed to be used in their daily job, the Taiwan police are not allowed to kick their opponents.

    Again, a bad strike is still better than a good lock.
     
  20. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Agree entirely.

    If they can stand up it is because they have slipped out of the arm-bar at some point. They will not be forcing their way up. They will simply be standing up to regain their balance.

    They could escape at any point. Later in the arm-bar and their weight is going to be forwards and open to taking down forward. Earlier in the arm-bar and they will be much more in balance and not really open to being taken forward but possibly open to a reversal.

    I point out that my comments are not a criticism of the technique as demonstrated. To me the clip is a demonstration of how to shift from arm bar to figure four arm lock made so that people can clearly see what is going on. It does this very well. I am merely continuing the discussion into a new area - when would people think of using this technique?
     

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