The Technique Thread

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Simon, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I appreciate 100% that what you show is a demonstration for video and that in actual application the technique would be much tighter to the body.

    My question about keeping / establishing control of the elbow was not about what you show in the video but rather about the technique in general.

    How does one maintain or establish control of the elbow so that it can be smoothly placed on the chest or inside of shoulder without loosing control or the elbow dropping out of position?
  2. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Certainly in my style you're not going to get that, or any other lock on without some sort of pain compliance.

    It would be fair to say that I'm not so focused on the elbow, but the transition into the lock position. If I'm losing control of the elbow, and I'm happy to concede I could, then we try to build in failures and alternatives.

    I would drop the opponents arm in a heartbeat if I was losing it and turn to elbows, punches and knees.

    Others more skilled in joint manipulation may be able to give a better answer.
  3. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    This is exactly what my approach is. I just can't help hoping that there is a better way.

    I like the way you use your outside arm to get control of the elbow at the beginning. When I do this technique I tend to use the outside arm to create a pull on a the opponents shoulder. This creates a mini balance break which gives one more time before one is hit, but it does not control the elbow.

    It will be a couple of days before I next have a willing victim, but when I do I will play around with some variations to see what I discover.
  4. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    The one thing that does spring to mind is the use of clothing.

    I do keep meaning to borrow a gi, so I can grab the sleeves to create drag. This would give greater control throughout the range of movement.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Fair enough - I was always taught "hara" back in the day but haven't used it for years so am probably way off
  6. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you apply stand up joint locking, you should not expect that everything will go perfect as you predict. If you get control on your opponent's arm, that's great. If you don't, that's fine too. You still have 2 free arms to do whatever that you intend to do.

    Old saying said, "A bad punch is still better than a good lock (stand up)". There is some truth in it. When your opponent is standing, there are just too many ways that he can move his body to counter your lock and release your pressure.

    This is why IMO, all joint locking should include "take your opponent down to the ground" intention. Only when your opponent is on the ground, his defense and counter will be limited.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Without a gi, you can still pull your opponent's arm in the following ways:

    1. Dig 4 finger into your opponent's upper arm muscle with your thumb on the other side. You may leave a black mark on your opponent's upper inside arm. This will require some grip strength training.
    2. Use your thumb and index finger to hold on the 2 extended bones on both sides of your opponent's elbow joint while the remaining of your fingers are holding on his lower arm next to his elbow.
    3. Control and pull his wrist joint.

    Those are the stepping stone when someone tries to switch from gi to no-gi if he doesn't want to lose his "pulling" ability. It's so easy to train these. When you watch TV, your right hand can grab on your own left arm as if your left arm is your opponent's arm.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  8. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    eh, i dunno. let's find the japanese word for "thingy" and use that instead :p
  9. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Indeed. We always used a crush-hold like this (from the side so they can't clout you) when doing security in nightclubs.

    It's a great way to A) Get someone's focused attention B) Cart out someone who outweighs you considerably (usually with them dancing on their toes).

    Potentially you can separate their tricep from it's anchorings if you squeeze and twist their upper arm hard enough with the whole hand. Grip as weapon.

    I do like a bit of chin na :). And it definitely works well in situations where you can't or don't want to be seen belting someone.

    Good Luck, Good Thread
  10. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    jwt, Mushroom, Sifu Ben, Fish of Doom, Sampsi and I were doing this recently at a session with Smurf.

    Smurf had some really good variations.
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    A fourth way to pull your opponent is through simple friction. Snake techniques can get a surprising amount of grip..


    I have hyper-flexible thumbs, if I put pressure on them they simply bend backwards. This limits how hard I can grip. Snake techniques are great for me because they don't use thumbs!

    The above video is the best of a bad bunch. There is a lot of very poor snake technique out there. The video shows how the snake hand can be used to control a limb and to pull an opponent forward, but I personally would not perform the applications as shown.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  12. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    A little clip I took on the spot this morning as two of my guys were practicing;

    [ame=""]Turn & Chop with Axe - Neutralise standing arm-lock - YouTube[/ame]

    They were looking at the movement of 'Turn & Chop with Axe', as seen at 2.43 in this video:

    [ame=""]Yang style Tai Chi - First Section - YouTube[/ame]

    The movement first appears to be a simple backfist strike, however Bobby & James were practicing push-hands, and when James would strike forward, Bobby would roll back, deflecting the push and applying a lock on James' arm. The question was, how to counter that?
    Using the rotation of the shoulder, the elbow and the wrist, we looked at how 'Turn & Chop' could be used to flow with the joint lock and twist out of it, to deliver a counter-strike.

    Sorry it's not as indepth as Simon's OP video - looking forward to hearing some feedback :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  13. Simon

    Simon Back once again Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Nice and another defence to an arm bar from a completely different art.

    Has the guy in black been with you a little longer, as he seemed to be more structured?
  14. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Yeah, the guy in black has been with me for just over a year now, whereas the guy in blue has only been coming since around Sept./Oct., and can only come on the Sunday's that I teach due to work commitments (I usually do 2 Sunday's per month)..
  15. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    No expectation of perfection in real world application, however one should be able to carry out any technique 100% of the time on a compliant partner.

    My observation is that I find it difficult to consistently gain control of the elbow at the start of the technique, I was wondering if any one had any tips for doing this.
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I think that all of our opinions on this sort of thing are shaped by the background and skills that we bring to the situation.

    As my background is more one of standing striking and locking and not so much one of throwing and groundwork I have a slightly different take on the subject.

    In my opinion all joint locking should include the intention of controlling the opponents centre. When your opponents centre is controlled his defence and counter will be limited.

    Any control one gets over a standing opponent is going to be brief, but that is all that is required to set up an opening for a technique.

    This technique can be a strike, throw, or another lock as one sees fit.
  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I think the rotation of the arm from the shoulder will work to escape the arm lock, but I don't think the strike will work well as a counter as I don't think it will get through/ past the wrist and elbow control from that position. If you want to put a strike in as a counter I would use kao (shoulder strike) from that position. Kao is a good counter to someone pulling/ controlling your arm from the outside wrist and elbow controls 2 on 1. Give it a go combining it with your swing fist (turn & chop) which serves to neutralize the lock.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  18. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Cheers cloudz,
    I like to add the 'counter strike' in, if it's possible in the moment - but with this particular application, the primary objective is to neutralise the lock, and to use the arm to cover the opponent whilst making ready for the next attack..
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Cool, I would suggest to make the next attack kao, it's the natural counter to pulling in TCC (see Da Lu tui shou pattern for example). If you are pulled at the wrist you can use Zhou/ elbow first. Pulled from the elbow, crash them with shoulder/ kao.

    Kao can be thought of as a kind of butting strike; shoulder, hip, knee and even head (but most commonly shoulder). Which I'm sure you already knew, but for the benefit of those not too familiar with it.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  20. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Ill see if i can get good old Slip to post up some videos of thai/boxing

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