The Technique Thread

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Simon, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's been a long time coming, as I've been talking about this thread for over 2 years.

    The Technique Thread is a place where one of us films a technique, any art, any style and we discuss it to death. Then someone else posts a video.

    It doesn't matter if it's Karate, TKD, FMA or something just from your own repertoire.

    The only rule is that there is no right or wrong here. Just because I move my left leg and you move your right just shows the difference in our arts, styles, physical makeup etc.

    Discussion is welcome, as are suggestions, potential problems, but this is a no flame thread. We want to encourage your videos.

    First off is the figure 4 arm lock.

    Obviously you can't get everything in a 3 minute video, but here are some examples of how I do it and teach it.

    Lets have at it.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpwG_sxUntg&feature=share&list=UUCEvC8J27lX6ns2hNgY3zUQ"]Figure 4 Arm Lock - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2014
  2. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    Looks painful!

    Nice vid and great start to the thread.
     
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    loved the chokes variation
    definitely something that has application to many style!
     
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpwG_sxUntg&feature=share&list=UUCEvC8J27lX6ns2hNgY3zUQ"]Figure 4 Arm Lock - YouTube[/ame]

    That's one of my favor locking combo too. I have always believed that locking and throwing should be learned in pairs in reverse order. This way when you opponent resists, you can borrow his resistance force, reverse your locking (or throwing) and take him down in the reverse direction.

    I'm glad Simon shares the same view as I do. The only difference is when I apply the 1st lock, I like to put my hand on my opponent's elbow with "tiger mouth" (space between thumb and index finger) facing toward him (many people like to let tiger mouth to face toward to themselves). I feel I may have better control on my opponent's arm this way.

    I like the term "figure 4 arm lock". I used to call it "triangle elbow (or shoulder?) lock". It's hard to say whether that's an elbow lock or a shoulder lock. It seems to me that the pressure is applied on both elbow joint and shoulder joint.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Here is one of mine to share. It's called "切(Qie) - front cut" in Chinese wrestling.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_53wt5RJs0c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_53wt5RJs0c[/ame]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  6. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Where is the man in the white tops' right hand going in that vid, throat/opposite shoulder/along the clavicle?

    How likely is it with that technique that you also end up falling down?

    I like that one, just not seen it being performed quite that way before.
     
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The right hand goes to the throat in that clip.

    After you

    - hook your opponent's leading leg off the ground,
    - you step down that leg,
    - advance your other leg, and
    - use your "momentum" to push him back down.

    The following clip can be seen in both angles. It enters through the "front door" (between opponent's arms).

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcKeZtZjNsQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcKeZtZjNsQ[/ame]

    Here is one that you enter through the "side door" (outside of your opponent's right arm).

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj1tNiUXVwo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj1tNiUXVwo[/ame]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  8. Th0mas

    Th0mas Valued Member

    Thanks for posting this.

    Just a couple of comments - Like YouknowWho I like the idea of training the lock in pairs. In fact my interpretation of Heian/Pinan Yondan incorporates both those locking alternatives in symbiosis (i.e. if the first meets too much resistance than apply the second)...

    My second comment is just a an observation. I am assuming that your relatively long distance from your opponent in the video is just for demonstration purposes? I find when applying those types of bars and locks that I like to be much closer so as to better apply the necessary mechanical advantages on my opponent.

    Thanks for sharing - great thread

    Tom
     
  9. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Nice thread!

    Liked the technique also. These days I won't clasp the wrist if I'm doing it standing, I find it's too fiddly, my partner usually gets out of it before it's finished, although technically we do the technique the same way you're demonstrating here. Instead i'll brace my forearm over his and concentrate on levering the elbow - i set it up by parrying the punch while trying to unbalance the puncher over the edge of his foot, then "ride" the punch back when he retracts it. Having said that it looks like you're changing from a straight arm lock (my sound isn't working) in which case the wrist grip makes sense.For what it's worth I emphasise a larger angle on ukes elbow, just over 90 degrees, to keep strength unavailable to him.

    I like the way you appear to hook his elbow through as you make the change from straight arm to bent arm, I think it gives this lock a lot more guts - the pulling through of the elbow is the driving force.

    This is an awesome thread, let's support it and help it take off!
     
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Nice video and application. I don't want to give away too much about our style(too late that anyway) but from a ninjutsu perspective there would be a lot of issues. Basically they are:

    1) The footwork when you change locks, your returning from his side towards his center opens you up for a groin kick if you aren't careful, and his rear side punch or kick. There were a few moments during different parts of the video where a punch to your right ribs or kick to the groin seemed possible. This is what puts you in position for him to punch you in the face and requires you to preempt that with an elbow to his face as you enter in. However, if he was just holding a knife or stick in his left hand, it wouldn't take much to stab you as you enter in for the lock or elbow to his face. So what footwork changes would render his potential counter ineffective should be looked at.

    2) This goes along with the first point raised, when you change your lock, you only address his upper body as you move, so his legs aren't compromised or controlled. In ninjutsu this would be done with either your right foot or knee or a combination of both. To affect his right leg would require you to keep a lower stance as you enter in, which would be a more ninjutsu perspective of staying lower than your opponent.

    3) Look at your uke's left shoulder throughout the clip. As your application of the technique doesn't make it go backwards, it means he can throw a punch with it. The only versions demonstrated that showed otherwise were when you went behind his right side and did the choke(however you still don't address his lower body, a kick to the back of his right leg for example to further off-balance and control him). So how can you move in a way that keeps his left shoulder moving towards the left(this has to be experimented with and comes from addressing his structure more so than his arm)?

    4) Positioning. When you do the first arm bar, you are facing the camera instead of him and your control is moving sideways(perpendicular) to his body. Your left hand though not grabbing(good), has to push down to control which takes a lot of power and can be countered. Instead, if you just alter your position and arm so that it is pointing towards him(your hand pointing towards his face/body instead of towards the camera), you can maintain the same control with your wrist/forearm on his elbow while positioning yourself to still strike with the same limb instead of only being able to do the lock with it. Also, in this original position, he can do a side kick or back kick because you are not controlling his leg, and your left leg is out of play(changed at :48 for the better).


    5) I don't really see an issue with having two hands against one, as long as your closest elbow is in a guard position ready to block strikes or deliver your own. When you change to a one armed grip however, unless you lock his right scapula area, it is easy to escape or power out. The scapula lock is accomplished by moving behind him while keeping his right elbow extended outwards to the right at an angle. In the shiho dori technique of many arts, you can see this.

    6) When you do the choke where you reach behind his neck(near the 5min mark), he is standing there waiting to hit you flush in the body with his left and it requires you to rise up, compromising your base. If you are taller than the opponent it makes sense because you wouldn't have to do so but otherwise it seems a bit dangerous. It looks cool, but any technique where you are forcing your opponent upwards from a downwards position is counterintuitive and potentially dangerous.
    If his resistance makes you change techniques as shown in the beginning of the clip, it makes sense, but otherwise you have to be very careful when doing so. That is my big gripe with aikido techniques that have a guy down and ready to eat the dirt when they suddenly bring him back up and decide to throw the other way. Even when maintaining control and keeping them unbalanced, it is tricky and dangerous.


    7) After the takedown(2:40ish), you lean forward and could be kicked(which might be obscured from your vision unless you are looking towards his legs) or punched with the offhand due to the proximity of your head to his. If you were wearing a helmet, the added weight would make you easier to reverse from that position. Though you are keeping a good base, it would be even better if you just straightened up your upper body as you go down.

    Again, I like your technique but in application, you are trying to do something to him instead of letting him do it to himself. A bit less doing and more leeway for him to do it will make you more subtle and require less work and power. You will have to rely on grabbing and force less too. Without keeping the wrist lock on, it makes your version harder to do. So if you can't grab and control his wrist well, what happens to the application? Also, can you do the same technique with your arms reversed(In our art it would be an ura oni kudaki)? How about without grabbing your own arm to do the figure 4? Can you apply the technique without so much manipulation of his arm? In other words, how do you get him to do the work for you? The more we try to physically move the opponent around, the more they will feel that and try to resist.


    Those would be the major considerations that would be different from a ninjutsu perspective.
     
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree with you 100% on this. The more that you "give", the more that you can "take". In CMA, it's called "door opening move". You may be able to take your opponent down by this move, but you don't mind if it doesn't. You just want your opponent to respond to your initial move so you can take advantage on it. Whether your opponent will resist against it or will yield into it, you don't care.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2014
  12. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    the technique(and its variations) at about 1:00 of this video:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhv4x5xdHSQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhv4x5xdHSQ[/ame]

    the feasibility, the probability of effectiveness, the PROs and cons of the said technique, the principle(s) involved.

    discuss.
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    All points duly noted and accepted.

    I have to pitch these video so they appeal to both the instrucotr, intermediate and beginner and it's difficult in a 5 minute clip.

    I personally wouldn't be going into an arm bar of any sort without a great deal more disruption to the opponent, but again I accept your points above. Thank you.
     
  14. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Who would like to contribute his "personal clip" next? Let's keep this thread moving.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  15. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'm happy to film more, but it would be nice to see the clips of others.

    Remember this is a no flame thread. It matters not if you're an instructor, or while belt student.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Hoping to film something tonight - maybe a DWL in honor of Coach Robinson
     
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    standing dwl?

    i would like to post something but i need to rope someone into it and all my training partners have left uni
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Lots you can do without a partner. How to throw a jab or front kick as two examples.
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Which would you prefer? :)

    To be honest they all sort of blur into one once you get going, mainly due to variations!
     
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree!

    Put 1 clip up is "sharing". Put more than 1 clip up can be "showing off". :)
     

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