The Systema Punch

Why do you think the systema punch hurts so bad? Normally an attack and it's target tense at the moment of impact. The systema punch kinda hangs in there for an extra second so when you relax the fist is still inside. Include the fact that strikes in systema are suppose to be hidden, you might be able to get a minimal flinch and do more damage.

I think systema's strike leave you too vulnerable, but that aside, I think they might be on to something. Not in sparring, but today I let a kick boxer put me in a clinch so I could use them to escape and it seamed to work pretty well, so long as I stayed aware of what he is doing.

Anyone else have an assessment of them?

 

I think we can all agree that there is a right time and a wrong time to use such a technique. There are so many variables to think about in this situation.

1. Size of your opponent
2. Your size
3. Opponent's reach
4. Your reach
5. Your strength
6. Length of fight
7. Type of fight

I could go on. This is assuming I know what you are talking about when it comes to the striking of Systema. It is meant to seriously injure your opponent. Not so much for sparring. You are open (slightly), but your opponent is almost sure to go down. It's a fair trade.

 

huh? doesn't the systema punch actually use no tension at all? what you describe seems more similar to a karate tsuki done at close range than a systema punch...

as for it hurting, never been hit by one so i can't comment on that, sorry

 

It uses plenty of tension, or else their hand would just fold up. They might say there isn't any tension, but that's just a word game.

 

Personally, I think anyone that punches without covering their jaw with their shoulder is wide open. The fact that they don't cover combined with how long the punch takes (I know they think it is fast, it isn't) sounds like a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

I think my instructor has a really good hit. He can do the three minute pushup, knuckles on concrete. He did karate for twenty years before going to systema for the last seven. The first time he hit me I thought the strike was amazing, but now that I'm used to it, it isn't as bad. It's still stronger than a normal hit.

To use it, I feel like you better be damn sure you are going to injure the guy because it's begging to get knocked out.

I think having knowledge of how the hit comes in protects me from it.

My systema instructor told me he was at a siminar with Vlad where a guy claimed he could take strikes from anyone. Even Vlad couldn't mess with him.

I think the hit is strong. I just feel like systema people inflate it's strength because they don't get hit by other weird strikes enough. I'm sure 90% of those guys would fall to one good shin kick as well.

 

To label a punch as a "Systema", "Karate", "Kenpo" (Kempo), etc., would seem to be aureated as there are only so many methods, within the human body structure to deliver a punch

 

Boxers stay lose until the hit, they cover their jaw.

Karate people usually hit with just two knuckles, are more tense through the whole motion, and don't guard the chin.

Wing chun strait punch keeps a bend in the elbow that's pretty significant. I was taught to cover my chin with my shoulder, but that might not be normal.

The systema punch doesn't guard it's chin, sometimes it barely chambers back, it doesn't snap back at all, and it digs in deep for an extra second. It is easier to conceal during infighting than most other punches.

I think these are really big differences. I think they are strong in their special places, but weak in others.

 

I did state there are only so many methods.

A Vsing Tsun Straight Punch is almost like a boxer's jab.

A Karate knuckle punch has been used in other Chinese martial arts. And you are mistaken to believe that Karateka are "tensed"

"Digging in" punching, as you described in Systema, has been used in Indian martial arts.

I still say, that it is aureated, as there are only so many methods to punch and nothing can be seen as "truly inventive"

 

Having never been hit by a "Systema" punch, I can't really comment on why they hurt more than "other" punches.

However, until a Systema fighter becomes the boxing heavyweight champion of the world, I'll still with my plain old punches until then.

 

From what I've seen, because the compliant Systema students getting hit by the 'Systema punch' are expecting it to hurt so bad.

 

"Placebo Effect"? :star:

 

Kuma, boxing evolved for the boxing ring. You will not better 'boxing' in a boxing ring, if it could have been done, it already would have been done. Boxing ruleset, evolved boxing. Its interesting to look at the changes which happened since gloves and more rules been introduced and how it effected the sport, but thats another thread.

Not a Systema practitioner, but I would guess that boxing would not be very useful in the military environment Systema was evolved in. I dont think you can shoot guns or hold knives with boxing gloves on.. thats a joke by the way

I have never been hit by a Systema person, I have played around with a few and seen them do some very interesting and effective stuff, but I dont have any set opinion on this art as of yet. However, I have been hit by a number of masters/instructors from other arts and its definitely not inconceivable to be laid out by one strike (bodyshot), in fact I would say that if your paying for instruction and the teacher cant demo the sort of power that can do that, then your better off finding another instructor. And if your attending a seminar, class, whatever... do ask the teacher for a few hits if he does not give them away for free, thats the only real way to learn how to DIY.

Edit: Just wanted to add a bit on boxing. Strikes in boxing are either for Points or a KO. A KO does not require especially strong strikes, its more a matter of accuracy. Bodyshot KO's are different, but are very rare from what I have seen. Dont get me wrong, a good boxer can hit hard enough to knock your head off, and boxing training will develop that, but the importance of such power in terms of Points and KO's is not that relevant. Of course there is also the consideration that boxers wear big soft mittens and have to make their power count despite that.. but thats not the point, the point is that the goal is different.

In a military/battlefield art, you need to take your opponent(s) out ASAP, in this environment power is much more an issue, but so is mobility, so is energy efficiency, etc etc etc.... different environments produce different considerations which in turn produce different arts. I dont think there is a one size fits all approach, if there was, things would be much easier. Though an adult male chimp will still make mincemeat out of a group of unarmed adult male humans, so maybe we should all go back to the jungles

 

@ Crane Strike,
Getting "hurt" by a punch.. I dont understand lol.
Let a boxer take a body-rip at your floating ribs. Your looking at something from severely winded at minimum, to spitting blood with a punctured lung..

Maybe your refering to the "deadweight" type delivery ive seen in Systema demo's.. Means nothing, sure, it can be effective, but so can anything. Bottom line, a trained fighter will walk right through it mate, throwing his own combo. While your digging in as you put it with your shot he's throwing left right hook uppercut..

Thing is, im picturing someone like Sibrisky Vuin, all relaxed and hands down etc.

 

The pain is not physical. Its mental... watching your beer spread across the floor is so so painful

I think I will pass on that one. No need to lose your drink and get a punctured lung in the same sitting :evil:

 

Seems like the systema style of striking is good in a self defence/pre-emptive strike context, but not in a duelling/sport context, like the [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqfYwhsQdQ"]Double hip[/ame] way of striking. It would be too telegraphic and leave the practioner too open for a counter in a sporting context, but that's the same of other self defence systems style of striking/fighting.

 

From what I've seen, yes!

Anyone got a video of the punch TS is talking about?

 

The systema punching mentioned, from what I recall, works off of the concept of compression/tensegrity, body relaxation, and a committed follow through on a base level. It works and has many of the same pluses and minuses as the way the Muay Thai round kick is thrown.

Like anything else, it is a tool, and if its the right tool for the job, it works great. We just have to be aware of the tendency of owning a hammer and then viewing every problem as a nail so to speak.

 

Do you mean from what you seen on YouTube/InterWeb or in person? I'm guessing the former. If it was the later, then why just look and not try? Proof is in eating 'punches' , not looking at them. Anything else would just be assumption.

 

Yep, what I've seen on youtube. I've been punched, kicked, thrown, crushed and choked in many ways over the years and I think I can judge good technique from bad without actually having to experience it.

And the systema stuff I've seen hasn't impressed me, hence why I asked if anyone has a decent clip of whats being spoken about.

I've seen impressive clips of thai boxing, boxing, BJJ, judo, wrestling, san da, tai chi, wing chun(yep), savate, karate, TKD, eskirma, sambo and others. Clips that any decent martial artist would be impressed by. I don't see why Systema should be any different.

 

My post was not about the combat effectiveness of boxing, but it was instead in reference to a punch that is somehow different from any other punch that has ever been taught before.

And actually, boxing is very good training for military personnel and is still in use in our combatives systems. When I was in the Marines I was fortunate enough to attend both LINE training and the new MCMAP program that they were phasing in. All the standard boxing punches, footwork, and defenses were included. The American and British military have extensive boxing programs.

Wihtout power you won't be scoring many knockouts. As far as bodyshots, the art of body punching is not as popular as it used to be, but an uppercut to the solar plexus was one of the primary knockout spots during the bare knuckle era.

Nowadays we rely mostly on modern weaponry in the military and most of our hand to hand is either control or occupying our opponent long enough for our buddy to shoot him. The idea of incredible military unarmed fighting systems is primarily myth.