The stuff you see in the media does not represent Islam

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Ahmad89, Nov 29, 2007.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I don't think there is any doubt in that.

    The Bear.
     
  2. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Perhaps you could expand upon that?

    I'm not disputing your POV, I'm just genuinely interested to know in what ways he influenced them.

    Cheers.
     
  3. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    "In the year 2000, Pope John Paul II called for an "Inquisition Symposium", and opened the Vatican to 30 external historians. What they found discounted many exaggerated facts previously believed. It was learned that more women accused of witchcraft died in the Protestant countries than under the Inquisition. For example, the Inquisition burned 59 women in Spain, 36 in Italy and 4 in Portugal, while in Europe civil justice put to trial close to 100,000 women; 50,000 of them were burned, 25,000 in Germany, during the XVI century by the followers of Martin Luther."

    It radicalised the Catholics because they were under threat. This radical streak is still there today. Just look at the choices for Pope.

    The Bear.
     
  4. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Yes I would unequivocally say he and the movement he spawned had a large impact on at very least the Catholic Church. The agenda of the Counter/Catholic Reformation was heavily influenced by Luther's criticisms and I don't think this is a particularly controversial point. Luther's form of Protestantism grew out of a desire to reform the Catholic Church he did not envision breaking away from Catholicism. He was not alone in his desire for reform and after the dramatic spread of Protestantism there was a real impetus to make such reform a reality and to specify the official stance on controversial doctrinal matters Luther and others had raised hence the Council of Trent.
     
  5. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Firstly Hitler was not a Christian - he hated Christianity. Secondly, you are now being an atheist apologist because "religion is the opium of the masses" was a central Marxist tenet and Communists have repeatedly persecuted Christians and other religious believers - or did you conveniently fail to see what happened in Spain, North Korea and China?

    Some extra reading:

    http://www.radicalcongruency.com/20051119-christians-killed-in-north-korea

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53863

    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/report-3000-chinese-christians-killed-since-2000/

    I suppose atheism doesn't have to be the cause of religious persecution per se, though. But when it manifests as a specifically anti-theistic phenomenon (which, let's face it, it so often does in the case of states that call themselves "Marxist", "Communist" or perhaps "Socialist") then it becomes a conversion faith and most people (on all sides) are pretty cynical about those.

    I'll have no internet access for a while so I'll have to leave you to argue with each other. Take care guys.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2007
  6. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Well thats just wrong. Hitler was a Catholic, endorsed by the Church and publicly and privately expressed his religious belief. Yes he disagreed with some aspects of the Church and yes he did tend to reference religion when it supported his goals but none of this negates the fact that he was a Christian.

    In Mein Kampf Hitler wrote:
    "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs
    Throughout his life, Hitler often praised Christian heritage, German Christian culture, and a belief in Christ.[82] In his speeches and publications Hitler even spoke of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice".[83][84] "

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/religionofhitler.html
    "Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

    He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of their countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.

    Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones. Acclaimed Hitler biographer, John Toland, explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..."

    Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church to blindly follow all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.



    As for being an "atheist apologist" all I'm saying was Stalin never did what he did because he was an atheist, in the name of atheism. I'd happily accept the fact that atheism may have been used for bad things if I've given a clear example. I've only seen examples of people doing bad things in the name of a positive position, such as political ideology, hatred, dogma, etc who also happened to be an atheist.
    You have to remember that the position of atheism is the negative of theism, that is, not believing in a god (associated philosophies such as humanism, buddhism, along with political views etc are separate). You'll scarcely see someone do something simply because they don't believe in a celestial cctv camera. Sure its certainly theoretically possible, but usually you'll find people do bad due to the positive views they take, such as a political ideology, or being certain that god wants you, sociopathology, etc.
    That is why it may seen inconsistent when someone points the finger at religion more often than atheism, it's because religion has the persuasive elements that can enable people to do bad things, which atheism, not being a worldview/philosophy, lacks. That of course doesn't mean when a religious person does something bad it was because they were driven by their religious beliefs but it can be the case, however when an atheist does a bad thing it is usually rooted in the positive worldview they take.
    The best argument you might have is to suggest someone holds a particular positive position because they are non-religious (as opposed to their hatred, ideology, sociopathology, etc) however even then it would be the positive position that would be responsible, unless you can demonstrate that atheism entailed that particular positive position (i.e. atheism entailed communism) which would likely be a tall order given that atheism doesn't entail anything other than not believing in god. ;)

    Did you conveniently fail to read the post you think your responding to? Where I stated why religious people were persecuted. ;)
     
  7. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    I think that I'm inbetween the pair of you.
    Ideology is bad rather than religion.
    Ideology might be inspired by religion but can also be inspired by other sources too.
    I don't think you can blame Christianity as a whole for any ideology.
    Christianity as Wry believes in could never be behind an ideology while non-theistic ideologies
    I don't think we could credit or blame Christianity as a whole for any good or bad.
    Instead, Christianity is a term that covers multiple theologies that have grown and adapted over the last 2 thousand years.
    Some Christian theologies have been beneficial memes, others to be toxic.
    It's easy to nit-pick Christian memes for bad things that were associated with them, but have you compared to the competing memes at the times? While Christian dogma could over-rule a person's common sense of how to be compassionate, it can also over-rule their natural 'common sense' of being selfish, vengeful and other natural vices that religious theology can help curb.
    Sure, Martin Luther was a racist and had many doctrines that we should find condemnable, but he was also a hero of free thought. He broke the intellectual monopoly that the Catholic Church had on Christianity, had it interpreted from latin into native tounges so the common people could read it for themselves and he encourage to make their own honest mind up rather than rely on the Church to tell them how to think. When historians talk of the enlightenment, Luther's protestantism is commonly shown as how it all began.
     
  8. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    All ideological structures tend to work along similar lines within their broad categories. There's no real mystery or surprise that when others think they know better, and proceed in to feeling justified in imposing their world view on others by force, problems may happen.

    The difference between atheism and religion highlighted recently is largely superficial. What is actually "believed" may vary enormously, but the expression of the ideology, and how it works psychologically, intellectually, socially, etc. is largely identical from system to system. A scientist, for example, might find his career ruined by insisting on something that isn't believed in by others - for example, a famous case in recent history is the argument about how many dimensions there are in string theory, ten, or eleven. Physicists who believed in eleven dimensions were pilloried and had careers in tatters; until years later it was realised that they were probably correct. That happens in most ideologies.

    Richard Dawkins has the same psychological reward for his beliefs as any true believer does, regardless of intrinsic veracity of beliefs.

    What kills people in the great sweep of ideological-cleansing isn't atheism or Marxism or Christianity - what kills people is people. When ideology meets ego, the two inter-connect - the ego receives rewards, such as a fixed explanation for the world, a place in a group, superiority over others intellectually or spiritually, higher social standing - a great many other very deep things.

    The ideology in turn is an evolving, highly adaptive structure which naturally evolves to make itself more able to survive, just like any virus. Once installed it actually takes over your world view, even your critical faculties, even dictating what you may or may not think about.

    It is in the trajectory of almost every ideological structure to, given the correct psychological/intellectual/social environment, to evolve in to a much more dangerous virus, extending thought-death in its victims across in to actual death of other non-believers.
     

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