the street-effectiveness of taekwondo/high kicks

Owkay, I know this has been discussed quite a few times, but I have a few questions we perhaps could debate on:

#1. Do high kicks work in a streetfight??

Anyone have any (not-imaginary) experience with high kicks in a street brawl??

Do they work or not?

#2. Any Taekwondo-ka's been in streetfights??

What techniques did you use? How did the fight go? would you rather have punched or whatever??

#3. How Do Taekwondo-schools train??

I hear a lot of unconfirmed stories about cross-training in Taekwondo-schools, does your school do that??

Do you pay a lot of attention to self defence/streeteffectiveness??

Do you spar a lot? Or only kata's??

Owkay, I know Taekwondo has been flamed a lot, and many flame-threads exist on this subject, but this is NOT an attempt to flame Taekwondo, or any MA at all!!

I just would like to peacefully discuss the effectiveness of high kicks, and Taekwondo on TH3 $Tr33t..

 

I think the majority of TKD instructors (Though unfortunatley not all) will tell you the high kick is not usefull in a street fight, the reasons for trainning it I have heard range from the increase in the ability of your lower kicks to their usefullness in competition.

I've never had to hit anyone but I've pushed them over and thrown them around (Well, hip throw-ish once) and I would certainly never have felt happy with using a TKD kick in a street fight of any sort but then I've never been taugh low kicks as part of my curiculum so I wouldn't expect to feel happy about it.


Some TKD schools train well, some train badly, some are McDojo's some teach crap, some enter kickboxing and MMA matches, it all just depends really on the school. I personally have found a lot of bad schools and instructors (Only 1 really impressed me out of 10) but everyone's going to yell at me like they always do for saying that (Obviously my experiences are wrong )

 

I guess you don't just want TKDers to respond since this is in General so...

There's a story that goes around about karate chap Terry O'Neill taking out some random thug (who'd turned up at a nightclub where he was working in order to fight him) using a roundhouse kick over the top of the cash desk at the club door. But it's probably one of those stories that's been embellished in the telling. Either way, it probably only works if you're Mr O'Neill.

It just strikes me as an unnecessarily high risk to throw yourself off balance by lifting your leg high unless you're absurdly quick. Only you can judge whether you're absurdly quick enough but I'm damn sure I wouldn't risk it.

 

Well, I didn't post this in the TKD forum, because I think I will get flamed there to much, and then this thread ends up in a style vs. style, and will get closed.

I posted this thread here so I could get responses of all sorts of people, not just TKD's.

 

Groovy .

Edit: Whether the high kicks are effective in the street also depends whether you can do them without warming up. Again, I personally would have trouble using high kicks without stretching first. On the other hand, I could probably punch someone in the nose or sweep their front leg without warming up - so there are definitely techniques I'd use in preference to high kicks. I guess it depends on your own ability - whether you can pull a high kick out of the bag on cold legs, in jeans, at sufficient speed, without pulling all your muscles and actually giving your opponent an advantage.

 

Yeah, I mean besides everything else you have to sk yourself, what makes the high kick better than punching the guy in the face? I'm not saying it never will be or you would never see em happen in competition but it's important people understand why they work so well in competition and not street fighting.

 

I can throw my kicks above head height in no time flat, without warming up or pulling a muscle, and yeah, I'd feel comfortable doing that in an actual str33t fight. High kicks are my area of expertise, but I know that for many people, performing them would be suicide in a fight. It's all personal ability, really.

 

Yup, I think that pretty much nails it.

 

I've used em, to moderate success before.

If you know what you're doing and your opponent isnt expecting them then they are another useful weapon in your arsenal. I have NEVER seen anyone rush in and take someone down when a high kick was thrown, they usually back off; which is useful to create distance and plan your next defence.

 

Oh my god its the street, the dreaded STREET.... aaaaggghhh run to the hills....... save the kids........ there's no time its THE STREET!!!!!!!!

 

Are we assuming that a TKD practioneer is limited to just high kicks?

 

I've been in several "street fights". The best defences of course are awareness and avoidance, which I use sometimes and have managed to avoid several fights over the past couple of years because of this.

Each fight is different and I've ended up finishing fights standing up and striking and on the ground. I finished one fight with a block (the guy realized he was in over his head, I offered him a way out and he took it).

As for kicks, I knocked a guy out with an outside crescent kick to the head. I had to because his buddy was on my back with his legs wrapped around my arms. I also knocked a guy down with a side kick to the midsection. Kicks above the waist can work but personally I think they are very low percentage items and something I rely on only if I have to.

In training we practice kicks of all heights (low, middle, and high) and in combination with other kicks or strikes. For "self defence" we focus on lower kicks... in my opinion they are safer to deploy and work well in a combination.

See above. I've been punched, kicked, grabbed, pushed and so on. Luckily for me, my body responded to the attacks and I have been able to escape with few injuries.

We cross train. In house we bring in Hapkido locks/falls/etc, FMA basic stick and knife, ground grappling, and other things. We also encouarge students (and instructors) to get out and train. We have a guy who cross trains in submissions fighting and we encourage people to go and check out clinics and seminars (take a look at my journal). Recently I have explored a bit of Aikido and in the past have explored karate, jujitsu, and other arts around.

In my opinion, it depends of the needs of the students. We run two programs, TKD and Combat Hapkido and they cross pollinate a lot. We do offer training in WTF tournament style fighting and forms and I think teach it pretty well. We try to balance it out with practical self defence and realistic drills and such.

Take a look at: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10787 for ideas.

I hope that's how it goes... learning and sharing is a good thing, and better than blind bashing.

Bottom line in my opinion is that TKD is a good system of striking that can serve you well for self defence in general. However, I really believe that the average TKD student (and any art for that matter) needs to supplement their defensive skills by additional training, especially in ground survival, weapons, and so on to ensure they are ready for "anything". Even if your style is "complete", getting out and seeing/learning what other schools are doing is vital for self defence.

 

is this an attempt to be funny? if so.. please don't! it wasn't funny, and you're not really answering any of my questions, nor contributing anything to the conversation

I know TKD also included punches, and all sorts of kicks, but I think I can savely pressume that it focusses on high kicks and spin kicks...

Well.. that only applies to the more experienced MAists.. not the 14 year olds, who start 3 MA's at the same time..

Only if you have spend a vast amount of time on one MA, you should add an extra art to compliment your skill.. IMO

 

This is sort of a myth and confusion between the art and the competition. WTF TKD sparring has restrictions on targets and tools, making the competitors focus on high kicks. Some schools, especially ones that focus on those tournaments, do focus on these skills.

However, the art itself isn't just "high kicks and spin kicks", it's a good mix of striking using the hands and feet to various targets of all heights. If you go to a school that focuses on the whole art instead of just tournaments, you will see the difference. Judging an art solely by the way theu compete may not be the best way. (Look at MMA schools and the differences in rules between various MMA promotions... it doesn't mean that MMAists don't know how to do certain things, just that they may not focus on them if they are training for a specific contest).

Personally I think that "mastering" one art is a good thing. It will give you a good depth of knowledge of the concepts and technqiues of the art, making it easier to plug in new concepts from other arts. Picking and choosing from several arts without having a strong base of concepts can be more difficult.

I usually recommend having one art as a "base" and cross training in other elements personally.

 

I totally agree with you here

What I've seen of TKD must have been competition-based schools, because they primarely focussed on high kicks.

I have never ever seen, or spoken guys who train at a school that teaches different.

But.. my bad.

 

Like anything else, people will be able to do what they have practiced the most of and are physically capable of. A person who cannot execute good high kicks in a classroom setting most likely will not be able to use them outside. If you have well developed high, spinning, and jump kicks, chances are you will be in a better position to use them in the right situations.
Part of it is also how you set them up.
For example, we have always been taught to keep people sideways to us as much as possible. Not the exagerated back stance you see in bad martial arts films, but a casual side stance. This is to limit the targets available to a opponent. It is also to be able to execute a side kick if the situation calls for it. So theoretically regular, spinning, and jumping side kicks are possible from this position. It depends on the situation and what the person is actually capable of.