That's lovely and all, and a nice summary of the basis of Christianity. Now having read the bible, and still choosing to remain of the Jewish faith, I wish to point out that 'waiting until the end to see who is right or wrong' will become a very pointless act. I'm going to summarize this, because this thread will NOT stop. Ladies and Gentlemen, stand your ground, because yes, one day, no matter what you believe, we will all die. In what manner, or cause, no one knows, and to even suggest one is idiotic. To try and avoid death by guessing what form it comes in is useless, because it will get you someday, no matter what. But believe what you will, whether one man calls it occult or not, for that belief may or may not prove fruitful. Live your life, infringe not on another's way of life. Because one day it may cost you. So please, let us all simply step back, swallow our anger, pride or righteousness. These thoughts do not belong here. Lets just all sit back and live. If you want to call another mans beliefs occult or not, fine then, be it so, and this is directed at no one, but I beg you, let this thread die, because its on a bad path and anyone can see it, if it continues, someones going to be abused, and this thread will fizzle out into a closing. I ask of you politely, do not continue this thread, its going to be nothing but trouble.
kempo fighter; i don't think this thread is going that badly compared with some of the religious battles that appear on MAP...everyone seems to be expressing thier attitudes quite rationally for a change. philosopher59; i respect your faith and your commitment to your beliefs and i would never tell you that you are wrong...because quite simply...you could be 100% correct. my intent with this thread was simply to highlight that despite what certain fanatic christian groups try to say the MA's is all about, this view is based upon a distortion of the facts with the intent of frightening people into a more polarised view of their faith. I asked you previously to provide some grounding for condemnation of ninjutsu from a Christian perspective. Not in an attempt to hound you, but to see what justification you had for that viewpoint. It is interesting that if you follow my original link, the blurb says that 'there is little published material to be found warning of the dangers of various MA's (including ninjutsu)' (paraphrased) Could this be that there are no dangers if people approach things from a level-headed perspective and the only published material that can be found is produced by someone with a questionable agenda? If you could post back some of your ideas about ninjutsu I'd be very interested and will not use your comments as an excuse to attack your faith...but I may offer my understanding as a complimentary view for you to consider. thanks to all contributers for not turning the thread into a flame war. Just because a subject is personal one which raises difficult issues doesn't mean we have to avoid it or reduce the discussion to the level of a playground brawl. The many quality posts on this thread show we can share vastly opposing points of view in a mature way.
Judgement is the one aspect of Christianity that makes no sense to me. It seems so contradictory that the God who is love would have a "hell". Eternal punishment for a lifetime of sin? That's not even justice let alone love. And what could we do to offend God in the first place? The whole "sin" thing sounds wrong to me, but that's a whole new can of worms that perhaps belongs in another thread. That means that you used to be open-minded. Thing is, once you've decided that something is right then your mind is closed. That's not to say you should not believe anything is true, but believe what you believe knowing that the chances are that you have it wrong. Just like all sorts of things that you used to believe in, that seemed so right at the time, now seem wrong. Yeah. I've taken up reading it a bit. I see where some of it comes from, some of the interpretations seem a bit though.
I have nothing but respect for all of the people who have posted and contributed to this discussion. I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss such personal topics with such a diverse group of people, an Athiest, a Jew and a Taoist....incredible. To Kempo Fighter, thank you for being the peacemaker here. I'm all for letting the thread die and getting on with discussing all the things we have in common as martial artists. But I would like to directly answer the question of ninjutsu being of occult origin. At this point in our discussion it would be difficult to really say that one thing is occult or one thing isn't since we are coming from some very diverse points of view. I have done some brief research of this topic and I cannot find anything to substantiate that claim. I'm not sure what I read in the past that made me think that there were occult practices in ninjutsu but I seem to have been wrong. Sorry about that...
^^^ don't worry about it, your not alone, which is why I pressed the point. So much material related to the art focusses upon the supposed 'mystical' aspect that the truth about the actual way people train nowadays is lost under a lot of misconceptions. I think the general feeling is that we agree that the leaflet is not to be taken as anything other than a propoganda exercise and that different people are free to hold whatever religious beliefs they choose. But most importantly that these beliefs shouldn't take anything away from our enjoyment of our chosen arts. My work here is done
Philosopher: Don't fret, despite the rantings of one or two posters, this has been one of the more civilized threads about religion on this forum! I've taken no offense at anything you've said or done here, I think it's been interesting.
Alright wahtever then xenmaster, but im dropping out of here, this thread just dosnt seem like I want to be a part of it tho
See now this is where I take issue... always have, always will, this point shows the hypocrosy of many christians through and through. We die... god judges us. I have lived a good life, am in the process of raising three good children, have done as little harm in the world as possible. I am a good person... But does any of that matter... not according to your bible. Screw how good a life I lived; I did not accept salvation... to hell with me. In my mind such a god who would judge on my belief in him before how I lived my life is arrogant... concieted... not worthy of worship. If this is your god I don't want to believe. And people wonder why the number of athiests grows larger every year.
Sorry, I thought you were calling the Friends a cult - or occult, because of their "quaking before the lord", which they no longer do, and I was attempting to leap to their defense I actually had thought the Quakers got their name from "quaking", like the Shakers got their name from "Shaking", which the Shakers did in fact do (in addition to inventing the clothespin and modernizing house and furniture design.)
Theres actually a good quote regarding the whole 'same belief, different interpretation thing'. "Put all the greatest teachers in the world into a room and they will agree on everything, put their diciples into a room, and the arguing will never stop." Cannae mind who sed it, goes something like that.... But it basically sums up my belief in religion.
I would like to ask another question about this idea of "religion" vs. "the occult." When Philosopher mentioned the "occult" practices of Taoism, you seemd to be referring to Taoist magicians like Gongsun Sheng and Zhuge Liang who could divine the future, ride on clouds, and control the weather. Now, why is it "occult" when Gongsun Sheng summons wind and rain, but not "occult" when a Christian prays for a sunny day? Aren't both of them trying to control natural forces by supernatural means? Likewise, why is the burning of charms to ward off evil spirits "occult," and not "occult" when a Christian prays to ward off the Devil?
I am a Christian martial artist, and i would like to know exactly what practices in martial arts are supposedly evil. i havent noticed any myself, except for some "religious" dojo, and havent seen any of them in person. either way, if i'm doing badness in my training, i wanna know. EDIT: also, in the Bible, magic is defined as "power from satan". how exactly do we know where the "power" in electricity, ki, astrological forces, weather, microwaves, etc. come from? in effect, under that definition, how is it that any of these "occult" things are shown to be evil?
Catchy, but I wonder how it can be believed. How would you get the greatest teachers together in a room and listen to them talk amongst themselves? Example: Are you going to bring Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, and maybe Lao Tzu back from the dead so that they can all talk to us? If you're not going to gather up the greatest teachers, then I think you're stuck listening to their disciples, and that negates the point of the quote. No? Did I miss something?
