The Sakki Test(not Sake)

That Chris Crudelli bloke did it with some non-booj organisation. He did it with the sword swing behind a screen without any contact being made, even if he failed.
You can guess how convincing that looked.

 

Depends what you think is happening.

If you believe humans can sense a killing intent without any known sensory stimuli, then as far as I know it is a peculiarly Japanese thing.

However, if you believe that it can be explained by sensory systems known to science, then you absolutely can train both your sensory systems and your physical reactions to stimuli. The requirement that the candidate should cultivate a state of mushin for the test is a biggy for me - anyone who's practised this will know how much sensory input we filter out in "normal" states of mind.
As far as I know, sensory training is part of some people's Buj experience. And from my own experience, I know that practising sneak attacks does make you better at dealing with them (quelle surprise!).

If, on the other hand, you believe that it is all blind chance whether anyone moves out of the way or not, then no amount of training will make the blindest bit of difference.

 

To repeat: "Given the extensive evidence for rapid, unconscious processing of sensory cues, of powerful and automatic learning of patterns, and various priming effects that can reverse apparent agency in human interactions (i.e., body language cues by the testee can prompt responses by the tester), it's not actually surprising that it is possible to pass the sakki test." (emphasis added)

Or, to rephrase: I am saying there is a very large amount of research in the cognitive science literature that explains just how one could pass the sakki test. This is not a case where "we just haven't tried to research this phenomenon yet."

 

i don't think it's blind chance. i think that certain individuals have trained their senses and have trained in the ability to move unconsciously. but aside from that, all that nonsense about "killing intent" and "sensing danger" is borderline ridiculous. and clearly one could train to get those skills without having to train with hatsumi.

seemingly the whole point of the exercise seems more than a little ridiculous. the dojo is a controlled environment. for all the talk we get from pr about training for reality, when i see examples of this, makes all the other comments seem so misguided, frankly.

sure maybe one can train themselves to have heightened sensual perception in that controlled environment, but it's not like you're walking around the streets of south london during millwall-west ham and you're going to "sense" some nutters coming up behind you to give you a chelsea grin.

oh wait, i take that back. if you're in south london and millwall is playing west ham, get the hell out! oh look, i'm a ninja?

 

<sorry for the millwall reference. i have a good friend here that i go to soccer matches with who actually is from south london and grew up a millwall fan. poor soul. we always talk about his team supporters and my team's supporters (s.s. lazio) are always looked down upon as nutters and fascists (some, with good reason, but i digress)>

 

Still don't get what all the fuss is about...:dunno:

People trained can breath circularly, or slow their heartbeat, or raise their body temperature, things that science claimed weren't possible. Now we know it is. So the earth is round, get over it already.

No, you aren't saying anything of consequence to this test, because you and the researchers you are mentioning have never tried to conduct it. You are trying making excuses why such research isn't necessary. Show where it has been researched before. You can't. We aren't talking about how you possibly could explain away the test, if you did it you would know(maybe).

Not sure what you are getting at. I never trained for the test except for practice rolling from seiza. That is not a common way to roll and therefore a bit tricky to do correctly. I also never said that only trained members could pass the test or that the test had any connection to one's ability to teach or automatically mean that one can perform the arts that make up the Takamatsuden. There is nothing unrealistic about it. I've taken the test and know that much. You don't get any cognisant spidey sense that you consciously respond to, you just move because you know you have to.

That is a misnomer. No intent, nothing to sense and respond to. That's what I take it to mean when Japanese people say they were being made to move or passed by their teacher. Not that their teacher cheated or did something to give it away. Again though, no swing, no move. So we are responding to a stimulus.

1) Yes.
2) Electricity probably.
3) Yes

 

I wasn't making accusations of cheating, but meant it in the way you describe above. You need a teacher who knows how to intend to kill someone.

How about all the "twitchers" who can't stay still for a second and roll away or move their head a few times before the cut?

Seems like Hatsumi's test was far more impressive, as well as instructive.

 

It's one thing to scientifically disprove heart rate control being the sole domain of the autonomic nervous system through empirical data. It is another to claim an ability to sense "intent." That is to know the state of mind of another human being without any physical indicators. Or it is a physical indicator as yet undiscovered. Go discover it, you'll make millions when the police and military realize they can find a way to detect killer intent without having to see an individual. Again even being able to verify a better rating that several kinds of control groups would be a step forward.

And as for this force being..

Let me refer you to my friend George Dillman and his ever evolving explanation of the force used in his no touch knockouts.

If there is something force there it should then be testable and verifiable. Chop chop. Get to it. I would love to see you prove me wrong but no matter how badly I've wanted to smash my DMM have the readings on it changed.

Until you can provide valid scientific evidence of this force and the human ability to detect it this thing is bunk. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that a thing exists.

The reason people are disagreeing with you here is that we work from a scientific basis of empirical evidence and rigorous testing.

 

There is nothing preventing people inside the bujinkan either, because a) there is no rule against it, and b) people in the bujinkan can do whatever they like.

Sure, it won't validate you for godan, but you can test and practice

 

Personally, I don't call those a pass. Neither would've Hatsumi sensei 30 or more years ago. Seasons change, people change.

 

And I realize you've been on this forum a while but it would be nice if you could use the quote function so we don't have to have discussions by copying and pasting.

 

Cry me a river. It isn't flim flam. Neither is chi. It's okay if you don't agree. However, something isn't false until it is proven, it is unproven. Big difference.
Their claims could be claimed as true because they were, not because some egghead with a measuring device came along years later and verified it. You are mistaking the verification as the important thing. The important thing is that they could do what science believed to be impossible, not that science later was found to be wrong.

There is no burden to prove anything to you or anyone else. If you can't be bothered to do your own investigation, you really aren't worth convincing. People who have passed the test know that it is possible, those who haven't or won't can think what they want. This isn't the scientific debate forum, so there is no onus to make true believers out of doubters. It is perfectly fine to doubt that sakki exists or that it is possible to sense. Probably won't affect your life in any way. However, if one wants to say it isn't possible, you cannot do so definitively without conducting your own experiments or showing where someone else did and proved it to be other than what it is said to be.

Trying it with the correct controls does prove something. Especially if it is tried over and over with consistently verified results and meticulously recorded and confirmed data. Don't you know anything about science? C&P baby!

 

Are you saying the Godan test as it stands is tried and tested under the correct controls, with consistent and verifiable results? Because from what I've seen so far, this is really far from true.

 

I doubt it, but it's much like anything else in the buj. There are shocking grades handed out, there are a few that deserve that piece of paper. There are real passes and there are fat nervous twitchy guessers.

Both arnt particularly difficult to spot.

 

Mine was, as was my teachers' and his contemporaries. Nowadays it depends. I'd agree that more stricter policies would be beneficial but then again, I'm not really that worried about it. I know the deal.

 

Case in point might be (and this is me speaking as an outsider, to be clear) Kacem Zoughari, actual deshi, not the photo op 'personal student' of so many dojo websites, of one of the true shihan, having his test conducted by Arnaud...

Though in that case it's not a case of the former's inability at all, just that you might be assigned a 'conductor' for lack of a better word who is not quite there.

 

Because I wouldn't have accepted the rank if I had any doubts. That's just me though. I also wouldn't have accepted it if it was just a cut to the head(though that could be fatal in a real situation).

 

Ranks are gifts. Gifts can be given, but don't have to be accepted. If you disagree with any rank you are given, you don't have to accept it. If you are not ready, you shouldn't take the test. So if you can't roll, are jumpy and nervous, or don't know why you are sitting there, you should wait. Simple and easy. It is your life and your training. I had someone I trusted implicitly give my test. I wouldn't have taken it with any old megadan or if they only cut partway. That would be cheating myself.