The purpose of Kata

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by dbmasters, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    OK, for starters I will say I train for Kenpo in techniques, not Kata's, with lots of hands on application and slow, simulated fighting while training. Which, in my mind seems to be the best way to learn anything.

    I attended a friends gym, er, Dojo, and they train in Kata (not a Kenpo style), which I know many (perhaps the majority) do. I didn't and still don't, understand the practicality of this technique, as I feel more like I am line dancing then learning defense...not a flame, just how I felt. Since Kata is common, I know there HAS to be a good reason to learn this way, and I for the life of me can't figure out what it is.

    Could somebody enlighten me...please?
     
  2. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Like boxers do "shadow boxing", most martial artists do katas/forms. Like shadow boxing, it's simulated fighting against a imagined opponant. With the exception that kata's usually contain multiple opponant's.

    Doing forms helps;
    In developing balance, coordination, and power when moving in differant directions, and making transitions from one technique to another.
    It helps in developing proper breathing.
    It helps in developing proper stances.
    It aids conditioning.
    It strengthens the muscles, and aids in flexibility of movement.
    And is a good training tool when working out alone.

    Like a lot of martial artists, I personally don't care for katas. But as a instructor I also realize their importance as part of the overall training regiment. Complete training has to have balance. Techniques, sparring, grappling, conditioning, and some type of forms or shadow boxing.
     
  3. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Thanks, I guess that makes sense, but it seems it has nothing to offer that the straight technique method doesn't, as one can even practice techniques alone...

    falls in the "whatever works for each person" category, I guess.

    Thanks for the explination.
     
  4. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Well, couldn't you look at your techniques as very short kata?

    but I think a difference is that in kata you can isolate concepts and princples, whereas in techniques you are practicing those concepts in application.
     
  5. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    there isnt.
     
  6. Jang Bong

    Jang Bong Speak softly....big stick

    Hi dbm - I checked you details and see you're a recent recruit, so depending on how much you've read you may not know the 'polarity' in MAP around this subject :D This should be fun...

    There are lots of benefits to be gained (some already listed, lots more to come ;) ) but the one that stays at the top of my mind is the 'blueprint / handbook of techniques that can be passed on as a complete set'. That is to say that rather than learning a hundred individual techniques (and remembering each one individually) you can learn 8 or 10 kata that contain those 100 techniques.

    Think of a decent sized song lyric or poem, then an equivelant page of a story or manual. If you are looking to pass on '100% accuracy', which do you do better on? [Note: I didn't say 'achieve', just 'a better chance']

    We also use our Hyung (Korean for Kata) as empty hand and weapons training - a week ago I helped to teach a non-weapons-using black belt a load of nunchaku techniques by putting it into a Hyung that he already knew. ;)
     
  7. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Ya, I have made the connection of the "short kata" idea...already thought about that. I guess the place I went I learned a couple of the first kata but was never told what the moves were for, I am guessing (hoping) if I went more I would learn that...that said, I think I'll stick with technique style learning...seems far more practical and effective.
     
  8. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    I don't know how anyone could teach (or learn) a kata without teaching the meaning of the techniques. It just seems so weird. When we learn a kata the meaning ALWAYS comes first. We examine the basic "bunkai" of a step, isolate and practice it first in the air and then with an attacker. THEN we put it in context of the kata. It usualy takes 6-8 hours to learn an average length kata in our system this way, but even our yellow belts can describe the basic level of application of every piece of their form (yellow only has the one).

    In American kenpo, their long forms (as opposed to the short forms) are composed of their combos, explicitly. In our style, the pieces are much smaller. They are keyed with the belt progression, so the kata you learn at this level will include basic movements that make up the techniques you learn at the next.


    There are some excellent books on this... "The Way of Kata" is one I just heard of but have not read. "5 years one kata" is another. I bet if you ask over in the karate section or at e-budo.com you will get more and better suggestions.
     
  9. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    Thanks. I found it weird that the purpose of each motion in the kata was not explained to me, but, then he (Sensei) knew I was only there with my friend since we were visiting each others gym, and knew it was unlikely I would "join"...so perhaps he just included me in the motion, but not the learning as the others I was doing the kata with already had done it before.

    What you speak of sounds like as logical of a kata teaching method that I have heard yet, perhaps I will check out that book and look into it a bit.

    Thanks again.
     
  10. Jang Bong

    Jang Bong Speak softly....big stick

    I'll go along with that - basic form 1 teaches the pattern on the floor with low blocks and forward middle-punches, basic form 2 replaces 4 punches with high-punchs and the other 6 punches with high blocks, basic form 3 introduces back stance and a couple more punches, then the first of five Pyung Ahn forms has basic form 2 in one direction and basic form 1 coming back but introduces knife-hand blocks at the end. The second of these five forms pushes the knife-hands further and introduces a side-kick...

    Learning depends on two things - small steps of new information, and repetition of known skills. The kata allows for both of these requirements.

    As has been said - just doing the moves without knowledge of their application and use gives a very bad impression of the power of learning via kata. :)
     
  11. thepunisher

    thepunisher Banned Banned

    In our style each kata combines the moves learned for each belt level (kyu). So basically when you are competent in your moves you should be able to do the katas as well. I've learned additional moves already not only through classes but also because of attending the kata class on Monday a couple of times. I'm fascinated by the Sanchin kata at the moment and I can do it pretty ok already, even though I've no idea on the application of the moves in it and also not learned the breathing perfectly yet- I do the moves a bit too fast.

    I think katas, even though they can seem boring at times, are actually really good as you learn perfect stance, posture, focus, concentration and it shows your instructor you know the appropriate moves. So they really are essential to any karate.

    Christian
     
  12. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    There's a nice article here in MAP about the usefulness of kata. Look for it in the articles section.
     
  13. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    There's a nice article here in MAP about the usefulness of kata. Look for it in the articles section.
     
  14. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    The best part about kata

    I think that kata are valuable in that they teach the basic and advanced techniques, strategies, and feelings of any art. I also think that they help to develop breathing, power, balance, muscles, stance work, foot work, speed, etc.

    However, the best part of kata/forms/sets is that they get you into "perfection" mode. When you practice and practice a kata, you get used to trying to perform each "move" as best you can, and to put as much speed and power into the moves while remaining relaxed. This not only trains your body to perform all the moves crisp, fast, powerful, etc, but trains your mind to get into "perfection" mode, where you try to execute all of your techniques with good form, speed, and power. If you practice your katas correctly, and get into the correct mode, and transfer that mindset into your sparring and your other drills, then you will excel in your sparring and drills as well.
     
  15. tenzenryu

    tenzenryu New Member

    Hi

    IMHO traditional kata techniques are part of a mostly outmoded fighting system which involved continual close contact with the opponent (bridging). This kind of fighting is now only seen in some internal boxing schools and in Wing Chun. It seems to have been displaced by modern sports sparring which is based on Western boxing and kickboxing and to an extent on Japanese Kendo.

    A lot of schools therefore practice kata (the outmoded training system) but fight contests with the modern system and never seem to wonder why there is a disconnect between the techniques utilised and/or make up something to explain the difference when imho there is nothing to explain. Training kata and fighting modern sports is like training to fence and then fighting with a gun.

    Self defence techniques are a little closer to kata technique but of necessity use supplementary techniques (e.g. locking, throwing, strangulations, pressures points etc). These techniques were taught alongside but separate from kata in more ancient traditions.

    Kata imho are only worth learning if either

    a) you are doing the traditional kind of contest
    b) you are adapting self defence from them (American Kenpo exemplifies) or
    c) your kata are made up of modern sports techniques

    IOW how you train should be how you fight

    R
     
  16. Jang Bong

    Jang Bong Speak softly....big stick

    Interesting quote - as we have been taught all 4 of your examples directly out of our 'kata'. It all depends how you look at various moves. I'm not sure of your knowledge on ancient traditions (mine is non-existant), but I'd be interested as to how you know this fact.

    That is a direct quote from an Iain Abernathie seminar 2 weeks ago. (A great proponent of getting all your fighting moves out of kata :D )
     
  17. tenzenryu

    tenzenryu New Member

    Hi,

    I have worked over 10 years on kata interpretation and in doing so I decided to return to the roots of Karate i.e. various forms of Chinese Kung Fu. The forms in those arts are used for bridging/joining/sticking/adhering/chi sao/push hands/roushou, however you want to call it and allow kata movements to perfectly match the fighting application.

    However, Kung Fu also has supplementary techniques (36 throws, 72 locks, vairous forms of pressure point type attacks) which are taught alongside the kata.

    I don't knock someone who practises kata and uses the forms to spark their creativity in self defence but imho if you know the various bridging drills, no creativity is needed, the kata technique is the fighting technique with no adaptation necessary.

    How you train is how you fight was originally a marine saying. an imesho Ian Abernathie is creative (see above) but doesn't actually know how kata are meant to work. The original Chinese interpretation of using kata is the ONLY correct one (although it's not the only possible one) and was the one followed on Okinawa up until the 1920s. It is also the only one that makes sense of the other traditional drills (sandangi, jiju kakie, blocking drills etc)

    The Japanisation of the island put an end to that. But one of my teachers spent a lot of time with the real Karate old timers and his verdict on what they were doing was simple - it was kung fu.

    My training in Karate kata as they should be taught has allowed me to cross hands with both Tai Chi, Hsing I and Wing Chun practitioners and if not always win at least never appear stupid.

    R
     
  18. Jang Bong

    Jang Bong Speak softly....big stick

    A very good example as to why I'm a careful poster - you never know who you're talking to ;) I'm much further down the learning curve and would never give my 'knowledge' as FACT - only "the way it was explained to me..."

    I never said it was an original quote of his - it's just funny that I heard it 2 weeks ago. :D You don't knock those that use kata, and he is happy that people think differently to him - no problems there. There are others around who don't accept possibilities of benefit from kata and they would use that quote as a basis for some of their arguments.

    Pyung Ahn (Peace & Harmony)
     
  19. jonmonk

    jonmonk New Member

    I suggest you check out his site http://www.iainabernethy.com and read through his forum if you want to get an idea of where he's coming from.
    Remember though that there is a large movement across the martial arts community at the moment to make classical martial arts relevent to the 21st century. This forces an evolution in fighting arts and means that the people involved in that have had to re-evaluate what they're doing to ensure that their training methods and the knowledge they're passing on to their students are equally relevent. These people are asking whether or not kata still has a place in a 21st century fighting system and if so, how can it be used most effectively to counter 21st century threats. These are 'living' arts and do change.

    Although fortunately for those of us interested in 'karate' as it was, a lot of it survives.

    There's a lot of truth to this I think. I've also had the chance to train a little in Southern White Crane (I take any chance I can get!) and seeing the older Chinese guys do it, it looks very simillar to the classical Okinawan karate. You can certainly see the influence on Shuri Te, the whip like punch for starters. There do seem to be other influences too though for example, the Naha Te punch is very different.
     
  20. Mufty

    Mufty New Member

    This a worthy cause. Have you studied the old Okinawan karate kata 'Uchinadi' as these realy show the diffrence between the modernist approach towards the older forms footwork, and emphaisis on hand movemnts, the old Kata are more closly related to the Southern Chinese arts.


    Traditional Okinawan Karate also incorperates throws and blending exercises.

    The biggest problem here is that any interupretation of a given move or set of moves is only based upon the current knowledge of the person trying to apply the technique, If that person has no real idea of how to perform a sucessful throwing or joint locking technique or has little if no knowledge of a sucessful vital point strike, then there application may not be as effective as another person that has these attributes. Also it depends on why the application is being researched, for sporting arts or for combat arts, as Kata and form are only really for combat situations, and have no if very little application for point scorring. We must remember why the martial arts were formalised.


    Not to sure about this, interesting idea, however as the martial arts a living art, and transmitted by us humans, I feel that evolution of technique is enevitable, and that the origional interpretations were in place because of the needs of the time. The kata/forms are our referance libuary, we can use them to refer to and utilise to our advantage, with a well rounded knowledge of the essential aspects of combat.


    Yep I have been training in Karate for a long time, and am finding that the Southern Chinese White Crane has a lot to offer, with similartites in the methods of stepping and punching.



    Training with other open minded people is good, and you will never look stupid if you are sincere in what you are trying to achive, and stay open minded.

    Regards

    Mufty :)
     

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