the pressure to not lose

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by sprint, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. sprint

    sprint Banned Banned


    uhhh.. okie.


    :ban:
     
  2. slideyfoot

    slideyfoot Co-Founder of Artemis BJJ

    This? If not, similar - might have been taking the mick, though. :)
     
  3. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    If the only thing you can see in terms of "winning and losing" is a tap, fine. I think you have a very narrow, shallow, and imature view. I didn't leave 12 years of experience at the mat when I started bjj. I've competed, I've instructed, and I know what I know. So here we are, back at square one. When does the next round of "I'm right", "No, I'm right" begin?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2007
  4. sprint

    sprint Banned Banned

    it ends right here.

    i will believe what i want to believe and you will believe what you want to.

    mmkay?
     
  5. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    Yeah. It was meant as a joke, actually. The idea that you have to become a monk to maintain any sort of level is a standard BJJ thing. Gracie Diet and all that. You didn't think I'd say something like that to try to motivate someone, do you? :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2007
  6. Lekta

    Lekta Super-Valued Power Member


    If it was just free-rolling the blue-belt should have no pressure to "win or lose". When we roll in BJJ, we are not going full out (i.e. competition level) but instead we try to emphasize prefect technique over physical attributes. As a blue belt rolling with white belts, you should not be focused on trying to tap them all out, because if you are a legit blue belt, you have no need to prove yourself on white belts. Instead, you should be focusing on honing your game and perfecting your techniques. A white belt is still learning the basics and as such your comprehension of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu should be far superior to theirs.

    Many blue belts at my academy go softer on less experienced guys and let them work on their offensive game and let more advanced guys work on their defensive games. You should not only feel in control of the pace of the roll but also feel sure that you could successfully escape a majority of the techniques they do to you. As a blue belt, it will not mean that you are faster, stronger or more flexible than a white belt, but that you have amassed a great amount of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniques and can use them effectively on someone of equal physical attributes. If you roll with an entire room full of white belts, it is possible you could face a D-1 wrestler or a Judo black belt. Does that mean you do not deserve the rank of blue? No, it means that someone had a great amount of other techniques from different arts that countered your current skill set.

    And, if worst comes to worst and a white belt shows better technique than you, just tell him you went easy on him. :cool:
     
  7. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    THANK YOU

    Great post. The thread can be closed now.

    Why worry about winning or losing in training? The only way you lose is if you didn't learn anything.
     
  8. sprint

    sprint Banned Banned

    i don't know maybe its just where i train. but my coach/sensei/whatnot puts the pressure on us to not lose to someone of lower rank. like whenever he sees a blue belt struggling against a white belt he goes somewhere along the lines, "make the white belt tap."

    its just the subtlety in his langauge. he always refers to the other guy as "the white belt." when its a white belt against white belts he would talk to them in terms of their names such as, "tim" or "mike" or whatever. but whenever its a blue going against a white he would refer to the other guy as "the white belt." take "the white belt" down what are you waiting for!

    its very subtle.

    whether its good or bad right or wrong thats where the pressure comes from i think.
     
  9. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Does your school have a heavy focus on tourneys, by any chance? It sounds like it does. And it would certainly explain the "win at all costs" 'tude you're talking about.
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    BJJ is very competitive.
    I remember black belts from trad styles turning up at my old place and the fact that the rest of us went out of our way to tap them was a running joke. :D
    Belts are targets to achieve.
    It's the nature of the beast...you become a blue belt by hanging with the blues....a purple by hanging with the purples...if you ain't hanging you ain't getting that next belt.
    The fact of the matter is that size, strength and experience of other things can make the distinction between belts less cut and dry than that.
    Linford Christie would give ANYONE a hard time on the mats with no grappling experience whatsoever such is his athletic abilities (at least in his heyday).
     
  11. sprint

    sprint Banned Banned

    not really. but we do have a few people who always go to tournaments and do well consistently.

    and i heard my instructor say something about "if you lose at tournaments its ok but if you lose on the streets that is when i'm really going to be mad."

    but overall, no. the school has no heavy focus on tournaments.
     
  12. sprint

    sprint Banned Banned

    there has to be more than that. just because one can give a good even fight with someone of a particular colored belt should not mean everything.

    like what if at one school all of the blue belts are 100 pounders? and maybe you just started and are 230 pounds and the 100 pound blue belts can't do anything to you. i mean you are hanging... does that automatically make you a blue belt? no.

    well the point is there has to be a certain skill set attributed to a belt color.
     
  13. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    guess it part of the school's personality *shrug* we've seen different people from different schools espouse different ideas.
     
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    "there has to be more than that. just because one can give a good even fight with someone of a particular colored belt should not mean everything."

    Yeah of course. I was generalising. When I graded in BJJ under Matt Thornton he basically said you had to show appropriate skill for that grade by hanging with people of your own size at that grade.
    It's not a cut and dry process though.
    He stressed NOT using size or strength as a technique "patch" to cover up a lack of technical skill.
     
  15. The_Lump

    The_Lump Valued Member

    That doesn't appear massivley subtle to me.

    In effect, yes, there is a certain pressure to beat a lower grade, but only if they're equal weight or lower.

    I have a bouncer friend who comes to my judo, and he beats me in every time because he is massive.
     
  16. sprint

    sprint Banned Banned

    but it is different in jiujitsu. the whole philosophy of this art is that one can beat a bigger, stronger guy if one has the correct technique. i don't know how it is in judo but this is how it is in bjj. so it doesn't matter if the person of lower rank is the same size or smaller. what matters is that you win and make the guy tap. you are implying that it is ok to lose in bjj to a lower rank but bigger guy. maybe you should recheck the philosophy of bjj (and not judo) where size doesn't matter.
     
  17. The_Lump

    The_Lump Valued Member

    BJJ is just a more specialised version of Judo. The philosophy is much the same. It seems to me that your view on the philosophy of BJJ is somewhat biased, probably due to your coach.

    In BJJ, if you're 100 pounds and a reasonably high grade, and you're against some 300 pound guy who is a low grade but knows the basics, you will still have a very hard time aginst him, maybe even losing. But to know that he beat you mostly with strength and not technique goes some way to making it feel less bad to get beaten by a lower grade.
     
  18. Lekta

    Lekta Super-Valued Power Member

    That philosophy also includes the idea that you would have do every technique effortlessly and without the use of strength. But a simple question is, can you scissor sweep someone with the use of at least some force? Are you able to sweep someone without effort and without the use of strength. In all truth, BJJ can and usually will [always] allow you to defeat someone who is larger than you without the use of a great amount of effort. But do you think your techniques are that smooth? That perfect?

    For awhile we had a "World's Strongest Man" competitor at our academy. Fully ripped, 350+ pounds of man-crushing muscle. His biceps was larger than my head. I could barely get under-hooks on his arms and when I went for a RNC we would just flex his neck muscles. He could of painted himself green and been the Hulk for Halloween (no joke). This man could make you rethink your abilities of BJJ and BJJ philosophy.

    What I am trying to get at is simple really...
    BJJ techniques allow you to use leverage against an opponent larger than you and use their strength against them. But, if you are only a blue belt and hope to use your technique on someone the size of Bob Sapp, you need to rethink you capabilities. You're not Minotauro after all.
     
  19. wrydolphin

    wrydolphin Pirates... yaarrrr Supporter

    The thought that BJJ or any grappling sport completely neutralizes size and strength differences is a lie. Does it help? Yes. Does it give you some sort of get out of jail, able to defeat any opponant card? Definately not.

    I find myself curious about your coach that he is instilling this need to beat everyone who is at a lower belt then you. How is that learning or teaching? I have found that my best training sessions and rolling sessions have been with upper belts who are less concerned about beating me then about helping me perfect what I can do and reach for what I thought I couldn't do. Sure I can dominate someone with less training then myself or smear the floor with some of the smaller and weaker women, but how is that helping them? What's the point of that, other then making myself feel better and making the club weaker because it is that much harder for them to learn.

    Your view of rolling, winning and BJJ seems awefully narrow and I would highly suggest rolling with a different school or getting out to tournaments where you learn what it means to push yourself to your limits.
     
  20. sprint

    sprint Banned Banned

    you just contradicted yourself. first your talking about "oh its ok to lose" and then you go about saying push yourself to the limits in tournaments.
     

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