The One Point • Gravity •

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by fusedroot, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    If something biological was found, I fail to see how the pope, or any other religious/philosophical/"spiritual" authority's opinions would be relevant.Historically, such "authorities" have been more oft opposed to scientific analysis than in support, due to their ignorance of the subject matter, and blind obedience to a belief system whose authority they feel is contradicted or put in jeopardy.

    Ask Copernicus, or Galileo.

    I would leave you all with this-

    "Gentleman, I beseech thee to consider, what if ye are wrong?" (or words to that effect)-- Oliver Cromwell to Scots religious leaders during one of the theologic struggles (read burning other Christians at the stake over doctrinal disagreements) in Scotland.
  2. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Well breathing is essential as we all know, deep breathing can help with relaxation as well increasing oxygen. As most know we generally don't breath correctly, our breathing is "locked" within the upper portion of the chest. Just by doing abdominal breathing or diaphragmatic breathing we can increase our intake of oxgen as well. Thus, allowing more oxygen to enter the body and being able to dispel and move toxins, nourish muscles etc.

    Though the other part of breathing is the exhale, this is just as vital and is also often under emphasized. I say this b/c your oxygen intake and your carbon dioxide output must be equal. So a 1 to 1 ratio, the problem is even though people take deep breaths they may not always release all the CO2 buildup. By not releasing CO2 buildup the next deep breath is not as effective b/c the amount of oxygen one is able to take in is decreased (b/c there is already CO2 in the lungs).

    So first this type of equal breathing must be established, the easiest way to do this is to just monitor your inhale/exhale and if you monitor others it is easy to see the many types of discrepancies they have with inhale/exhale.
    So by balacing your inhale/exhale or effectively the Oxygen/Carbon dioxide in the body you are already increasing your performance abilities.
    "As oxygen requirements increase due to exercise, a greater volume of the lungs is perfused, allowing the body to match its CO2/O2 exchange requirements."
    "Rather, breathing is stimulated by higher carbon dioxide levels."

    To try this yourself go for a brisk jog and take deeper breaths as you inhale and much shorter breaths as you exhale. Hyperventilation is actually a state of having too little carbon dioxide (this is why people breath into a paper bag, to breath in CO2).

    This is merely one step to being able increase endurance/performance just by breathing. Oxygen increase is needed for cellular respiration and is vital for the cell to make adenosine triphosphate (ATP) which then powers muscular movement.
    "Molecular oxygen, O2, is essential for cellular respiration in all aerobic organisms. It is used as electron acceptor in the mitochondria to generate chemical energy in the form of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) during oxidative phosphorylation"
    "Muscular activity accounts for much of the body's energy consumption. All muscle cells produce adenosine triphosphate (ATP) molecules which are used to power the movement of the myosin heads."

    While CO2 is vital in expelling the energy that was used in the body as a by product of cellular respiration:
    "Carbon dioxide is an end product in organisms that obtain energy from breaking down sugars, fats and amino acids with oxygen as part of their metabolism, in a process known as cellular respiration. This includes all plants, animals, many fungi and some bacteria. In higher animals, the carbon dioxide travels in the blood from the body's tissues to the lungs where it is exhaled."
    So essentially you are maximizing your ability on all levels by balancing your intake of optimum energy (Oxygen) and your output of waste (CO2)

    I will be honest and admit I am unable to (not the time at work right now) to find any studies on Qigong breathing or different Taoist breathing tech. I am not aware of any studies even done specifically off the top of my head, but I know of a real life application is in free divers.

    Free divers (they basically hold onto a weight and go down as deep as they can go on a single breath):
    do a tech known as apnea walking:
    "One example is the apnea walk. This consists of a preparation "breathe-up", followed by a short (typically 1 minute) breath hold taken at rest. Without breaking the hold, the participant then initiates a walk for as far as they can, until it becomes necessary to breathe again. Athletes can do close to 400 meters in training this way.

    This form of training is good for accustoming muscles to work under anaerobic conditions, and for tolerance to CO2 build-up in the circulation. It is also easy to gauge progress, as increasing distance can be measured."

    This is actually a Taoist/buddhist breathing method used in meditation techniques to achieve the same thing. That would also increase endurance and could be used for prolonged fighting tech. or some of the "iron skin" tech. when some would "hold their breath" to tighten muscles. So yes, Qigong tech. when performed properly can increase many of the body's endurance factors.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  3. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Reminds me of one of my teachers "You can fight 'the man' and 'fight the power' and this is great. But you also have to be ready if 'the man' or 'the power' is right!" This is admittedly hard for me to do :D
  4. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    One final post then I must go to sleep - as it is after 2.30am.

    For the sake of my sanity this is my last post here. I am just way too outnumbered - to keep arguing with everyone takes up way way way too much of my time. I spend entire weeks rowing here instead of getting work done - I don't even enjoy it.

    So that's it. I just don't have the time to keep arguing. You can go back to your 2 dimensional "qi exists" versus "no it doesn't" debates without a care for whether or not it is ethical. I know that on the whole it is too much to ask to expect people to care about such things. By and large people just want power and they don't care too much about the ethics of it.

    Hmm - I don't have too many pals to say goodbye to I don't suppose, but ta ta folks

    :) :p :woo: ;) :D :love: :eek:

    It's always good to go out on a song, so:

    [ame=]Click Here[/ame]
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  5. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    :eek: :(
    Well JK, the best in all you do!

    Well even if JK does leave she brought up some great questions that I would still like to address in this thread:

    Originally Posted by jkzorya

    1) How do I "create the "neidan" by sinking the qi with a different kind of motion"?

    2) How do I "feel as if your breathing starts at your feet, goes all the way up your back and over your head, down your face, throat, chest and into the dantian, then back down to the feet" ?

    3) How does going "into a deep meditation state" develop "a higher level of qigong" ?

    4) How does one "get your 12 meridians at least somewhat open before you can really do the ren-du circuit"?

    5) How do you "learn to flow the ren-du and 12 meridians at the same time and the 12 meridians must be somewhat open to open the ren-du." ?

    6) What does this mean?

    1) Unfortunately I am not clear on this question can anyone else take a stab at it? Or maybe clarify maybe?

    2) This is actually combining 3 different meridians. The kidney, Ren Mai and Du Mai. The kidney meridian begins on the outside of the pinkey toe and has it's first point (Yong Quan) or "Bubbling/Gushing Spring" where it travels up the medial (middle) aspect of the leg where it eventually enters the coccyx and joins with DU 1.

    The Du Mai runs directly up the center of the spine to the skull and over the exact middle of the skull down the front of the face till it terminates at the upper palate of the mouth. The Ren Mai acutally ends at the lower palate of the mouth (this is why the tongue tip is often set at the tip of the upper palate to connect Ren Mai and Du Mai) where Ren Mai continues to descend down the center of the chest and continues down to Ren 1 located at the perineum, that is midway between the scrotum/posterior labial comissure in women.

    From this point you can continue to "move qi" up the Du mai and back down the Ren Mai completing the "Fire" cycle (forgive me I may have my cycles backwards and don't have my reference material to confirm, should it be wrong I will correct it). Or you can send the "Qi" back up the Ren Mai and over the Du Mai (Thus going backwards as it were) completing the "Water" Cycle.

    Or from Ren 4 (Close to midway between the umbilicus and lower border of pubic symphisis) you can part ways and rejoin with the kidney meridian to go back to the feet. This can be combined fairly effectively (though it is a higher level meditation) b/c kidney is fairly close to the Ren Mai and Du Mai in it's Qigong aspects. This can be likened to what the "ancients" called "breathing from the feet"

    Physiologically it is most likened to relaxing the body and making sure it is in "perfect" alignment then by this alignment you are basically putting your intent all along the verterbral column (intravertebral nerves between the vertebrae) and the nerves running down the anterior body (intercostal nerves) thus working on building the nervous system.

    3) Going into a "deep meditative state" does not develop a "higher level of Qigong" The deeper the meditative state the more you are going into Shengong or Spiritual training. This is a further stage of development from Qigong, it is easy to think of Qigong to "focused calisthentics" and Shengong is the next step in training (if one so chooses).

    With Qigong you are working more on opening up the channels and pathways of the physical body (both energetic and physical i.e. joints, tendons etc.) preparing physically (as well as mentally) for Shengong Training. Shengong training are deep states of meditation where the spirit is getting cleansed, purified etc. for unification with Tao (if using taoist thought).

    4) Qigong, plain and simple. Work with each individual meridian through some of the methods briefly described above. This is what Taoists term as "working with post-heaven channels and Qi" Whereas if you start working on the Ren Mai and Du Mai you are working with "Pre-heaven Qi".

    "Post-heaven Qi" can be likened to what you do day to day with diet, nutrition, exercise, even breathing. These are all ways to develop your "Post Heaven qi", many say this type of Qi is unlimited (b/c of how it is gathered) but also somewhat unpurified (b/c of how it is gathered).

    "Pre-Heaven Qi" is literally your "Divine Qi" your gift of energy/soul/spirit that was given by the creator/Tao/God etc. This is your own form of energy that was the gift of creation, your own gift of life. Some say this is very powerful, but unfortunately limited as it cannot be replaced.

    Now the reason you work so much with "post heaven Qi" BEFORE "Pre heaven Qi" is b/c some Taoists viewed our world as "impure and not always fit to work with the divine." So you must purify and strengthen your body/mind/"post heaven qi" in order to be able to approach the divine light of "Pre heaven qi" as these will eventually combine to start to develop your spirit embryo (i know a bit out there but bare with me :D ). Then once you combine these forces of "Post and Pre heaven Qi" and develop this spirit embryo, a Taoist then will start to use Deeper (this point has been deep meditation) meditation and sending and nurturing this spirit embryo to grow.

    Once the spirit fully matures it is a purified form of the human spirit and is in accord with the Divine, thus able to unite with Tao/God/Creator. Thus becoming "Immortal" within the taoist frame of mind. This can be somewhat likened to becoming a "born again christian" in that your soul is now purified and your faith is strong and you are truly a reflection of Tao/God/Creator.

    5) See above.
    6) See above, but basically it means that a Taoist that practices Qigong and Shengong has a goal to become "immortal" it is not PHYSICALLY immortal (only one taoist has ever attained that and that is Lao Tzu), but rather spiritually immortal. Their entire lives are spent purifyiny their mind/body/spirits so that they may be purified enough to release past karma etc and "enter Tao" shedding off karmic coils.

    I have tried to compare the best I can with western ideas (some areas there are very few) which I aplogize for. Any need of clarification please ask and I will do my best. Also I know there are "Holes" in the theoris etc. This is b/c this is VERY, VERY basic overview of beliefs and ideas of "Internal Taoists" and their goals. Many ideas are associated from the Taoist Canon that is estimated to have a collection of about 1500 Texts! So to put it all on a little forum like this is beyond me. :D
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  6. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Bye bye JK. If you don't enjoy the debate, feel like your just constantly 'rowing' and your participation is effecting your work then it's probably a good choice to leave but just remember a break can sometimes help... no need to disappear forever.
  7. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    You don't read very well, though perhaps you won't be reading this reply anyway. Like I said, I'm not responding to any more of your questions about the details of my qigong practice, because you so obviously have no respect for it to begin with and are only hoping to selectively use and ignore what I say to rant about how "internal" martial artists are all egocentric, godless, delusional, etc. etc.

    Not that the answers to these questions are vague and mysterious or that my teacher doesn't allow me to share them, etc. I just don't feel like writing the ten-page essay with accompanying illustrations that would be necessary for people to get some idea of what I'm talking about, especially considering who's asking. All the above-mentioned are accomplished with specific techniques which are repeatable. I could teach you how to open your meridians in the same way someone could teach you to dig a ditch.
  8. fusedroot

    fusedroot New Member

    Lets get this thread back on track and focused on 'the one point' topic.

    Qi/Ki/Chi is most concentrated at the 'one point' as far as I can feel.
    I generate Chi from my one point by standing in the Horse Stance and breathing correctly.
    Once I am grounded, I have my center and 'feel' like gravity is no-more ! :)
    There is no argument as such about the 'electromagnetic' energy we produce ... only interpretation and Knowledge.

    Best Regards
    Jlz At Fusedroot Studios ;)
  9. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I know I'm in the "qi camp," but you sound batty.
  10. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian


    But if it works for you, keep on keeping on!
  11. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Awww, c'mon, Joanna.I"LL miss you.Y'know you have fun here.

    Also, the Cromwell quote was not aimed at anyone's particular religious affiliation.Just in case you were wondering.
  12. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Okay FR,
    I have to somewhat take a JK stance here, you are being too obscure and indescriptive of what you are talking about here (I mean no offense to you, just I have no idea what you are hinting at) and you keep mentioning 'one point'. To the best of my knowledge I have no idea what 'one point' is:

    Nevermind, I went back to your OP, Dantien or Hara is not a POINT but an area. This has already been explained, I fail to see how focusing on the Dantian as you are describing it (I imagine your lower Dantian as that is the one most closely associated with your center of gravity) will result in "Feeling like gravity is no more". This does not make sense:

    The way I was taught the lower dantian should increase your ability to "root" or increase your sense of gravity. It is not so much you "feel as though you have no gravity" but rather you have a much more refined sense of control of balance. It is so you don't have the "double floating" aspect of Tai Chi chuan.
    The Lower Dantian becomes Dynamic, like a sphere, intitally (to the best of MY own knowledge) when you start Qigong or working with the lower dantian it is static (Yin). The best way to look at it (imo) is by the Taoist "3 Ones" or Heaven, Earth and Man.

    1) Heaven is most closely associate with your upper body as it is Yang and by nature closer to heaven. What this means is the upper body should be insubstantial flowing and have force (all Yang qualities)

    2) Man is most closely associated with the middle torso, the medium upon which Heaven and earth meet. This means the middle torso should be light, agile, strong, forceful, substantial and insubstantial. A blending of Yin and Yang qualities

    3) Earth is your root, purely yin, like a mountain it is solid and unmoving, this is like your lower body. It is substantial, powerful (potential power) and Yin.
    The blending of these three take place throughout Tai Chi chuan so as to not be "fully Yin/Yang" Mostly these principles are held w/o physical movement and used more in Zhan Zhuang which is what it seems you are describing.

    By doing Qigong and by adding Qi (yang) to the lower Dantian it becomes substantial (yin) and dynamic or moving (Yang) Thus becoming less like a static state and more like a rotating ball (I have heard a Chen style teacher explain, chen style masters, dantians are like trying to hit a rotating ball, they just move and bounce out of the way.) This does not sound like what you are describing, I personally would look at your own practice a bit more.

    Unless you are not giving us information about it, which could be quite important. Focusing on other areas of the body (i.e. feeling as though the head is suspended by a string) can result in "Double floating" and loss of sense of gravity. I think (imo) you are mixing up two ideas here. You need to be a bit more clear on what you are trying to say.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  13. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I just want to say be careful with this as doing certain Qigong aspects can cause damage to individuals. Sometimes people read only books on the subject and begin to practice having no teacher to guide them. Or even worse they read the books and make their own interpretation of a Qigong and hurt themselves worse. Just a caution :D
  14. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    I absolutely agree with this, having experienced dreadful effects from incorrect practice,

    Hopefully BT will take guidence or at least ask for assistance/pointers here.

  15. lieqi fan

    lieqi fan Valued Member

    A fascinating thread, I’ve learnt so much from both camps. I’d like to thank everyone for their eloquent and articulate posts. Especially JK for continuing to defend her position, which allowed for so many great responses. I’ve no doubt “you’ll be back” :cool: (Arne voice). I hope so, anyway.

    Re: the topic. I wonder if the grand orbit that was mentioned by some posters (sorry I can’t face trawling back through the thread to check who) is the same or similar to the Shaolin Neigong one I practice as a medical qigong set i.e. no martial intent, although I understand it can be used in this way. I was also told it is very similar to Chow Gar internal frame, but I don’t know if this is true.

    Without going into too much detail this is: 6 dynamic postures (7 if you count the Liver posture as 2, as it is done with each arm separately ), which follow the sequence in which qi flows through the meridians and the 12 Yin/Yang organs in the course of one 24 hr cycle. The postures include puling up and locking Hui Yin (perineum muscles) throughout. All postures have 2 inhalations/exhalations except Kidney/Bladder, which has one long one.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  16. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Hi TQ and CarysB,
    I was refering to Fused Roots comments. Simply saying though I'm not convinced of what he is saying, if it works for him, he should keep on at it.

  17. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Ha - someone else who stay up too late responding to posts!

    I don't have to believe that they speak for God. If they don't bother me about my belief that they don't, Iwon;t bother them about their belief that they do. If they can't reciprocate, I'm wiser.
  18. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, some Jews say Jesus was messiah, some don't. The point was you said your belief that God is totality is in harmony with ancient Judaism. So, in that respect, you would really need to give references to the texts, etc. that support that claim.

    Judaism is a lot older than that.

    Myself, I see the Talmud as very true, but on a symbolic level, consequently, I'm using it as a kind of gnostic tool, or teaching aid to supply me with insight in to things whihc others might not see, like you say - we see different things. If we start working with texts like that, then we can see many unorthodox things - especially in kabbalah, which is hugely open to interpretation.See anything we want really.

    Fact is, rabbi just means teacher. It's like someone calling themselves "master" in taiji - doesn't mean they really are right.

    And fact number two is that to worsjip any part of God's creation is idolatry - and that includes all of the things in the universe put together. What you';re saying is worship me, worship you, as God, because we're all parts of the totality. I'd be suprised if you could find any mainstram Jewish thinker who thinks that that's not heretical.

    That actually doesn't wash as a theological get out, and it wouldn't with any mainstream Christian, Jew, and certainly never with an orthodox Muslim. Whether you add up all the the things in creation and worship them collectively, or whether you worship one tiny part of creation makes no difference - it's idolatry. You know I'm right. Maybe what I say could guide you in to more orthodox thought? Away from dangerous new age re-interpretations of God's word?
  19. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well that's a shame. I hope you find what you're looking for.
  20. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    That's pretty interesting - and reasonable, even by a scientific standard -better breathing techniques, better oxygen intake and flow. Good call!

    That's interesting, because I use noticing my breathing as a meditative tool.

    Interesting. Im a big zhan zuang fan, but I never see it as qigong, just a ind of isometric exercise, and as I'm very Yioquan influenced, I generally just breath naturally, but I'll experiment with some of the things you say.


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