The Never Ending War between soft styles and hard styles

Discussion in 'Judo' started by pmitch89, Feb 11, 2006.

  1. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    In my opinion this is an excellent definition of hard and soft - as such, I don't beleive that there are any 100% soft or 100% hard styles. For example, in boxing you are taught to roll with punches instead of taking them full force to your arms/head. Similarly, learning to dodge/slip a punch negotiates incoming force without meeting it head on.

    All styles are a mix of hard and soft techniques, so it's not really a matter of having soft and hard systems, but of having MOSTLY hard and MOSTLY soft systems.

    Along the same lines as timmy: you need to learn both striking, grappling, and takedows in order to be a well-rounded fighter. similarly, you need to know when to be hard and when to be soft. There are some times when you need to negotiate your opponents blows, and redirect them, using their own force against them. There are other times when you need to crush through your opponents blows to attack him.
  2. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I understand that is true, that you progress from the purely 'hard' and add the 'soft'.
  3. homer_simps1

    homer_simps1 King Procrastinator

    Maybe it's considered soft since the amount of punishment received is enough to tenderize the body after a while.

    What's always perplexed me is how arts are even categorized. What is soft about any martial art? You are learning to kick ace and any martial art can be potentially lethal. Even Aikido!
  4. pmitch89

    pmitch89 Thats Nucking Futs!!

    The points being missed here. Its not about the physical roughness of the MA whether it being karate, or judo, or aikido. Its about the principle. Judo can be rough with all the pushing and pulling, but that doesn't make it a hard style, like Freeform said its the principle of using an opponents size and momentum against them. And as for the substyles in karate, its what the main principle of the style is. The main principle of karate is strength vs strength, it doesn't matter whether theres some judo or jujitsu mixed in, thats not the main principle of the style.
  5. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Well, my point was not that judo is a hard style because it's rough, but that the pushing and shoving is just as much a part of judo as the attacks. You learn "techniques" to off-balance people by practicing randori, which involves strength, and strong people are often able to force techniques to work or just overpower on the ground. You can't just ignore these because they're what makes judo so effective.

    Talking only about the attacks is far too generalised IMO, and creates a very blurry distinction at best. This is why the hard vs soft debate is silly, all styles involve elements of both when it comes to application.

    Also, to say that karate is about strength vs strength negates the skill involved in the art. If it's all about strength, why don't they train weights all the time instead of going to the dojo? Because even in hard striking styles you are taught to maximise power through body mechanics rather than relying on muscular strength, which is the same in pretty much any art anyway.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2006
  6. pmitch89

    pmitch89 Thats Nucking Futs!!

    Alright maybe I was wrong by trying to discredit what ideas you have to share. It is true that Judo is rough and has I guess some "hard qualitys", but the principle does point to it being a soft style, but I will respect your opinion on this matter. As for the karate deal the same goes for that too. Some styles incorporate jujitsu techniques into its curriculum, but the primary bases is the striking aspect. I do apologize for me jumping to conclusions so quickly. I do enjoy the feed back and am starting to see the issues that are caused by being generalistic and vague. Please continue with feed back.

  7. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Watch some high level judo maybe, note the ebb and flow of the combat, how players appear to yield only to double and triple bluff their opponent. Hard and soft...
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2006
  8. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    To me the hard/soft issue is a creature of hypothesis prior to application. It only really exists at the design stage. Once you do proper hard sparring it really isn't an issue at all.
  9. Mutant

    Mutant New Member

    Do you even do judo? Judo incorporates strikes.

    Quote from Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano, page 239
    "I have long recommended the kata (atemi kata) particularly to beginners, to woman and to children under fifteen. Like mastering the falls, it is a fundamental part of judo training, which no beginning judoka can afford to overlook"
  10. Mutant

    Mutant New Member

    No, it's 'the way of gentleness'
  11. Mutant

    Mutant New Member

    Good point. In my opinion you can achieve extreme hardness through extreme softness. I think judo is 100% soft and 100% hard.
  12. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I never knew that! I always understood that Judo was essentially defensive (although obviously in competition fighting someone has to initiate an attack, or else nothing would happen!)

    In that case, I withdraw my earlier remarks about Judo being a 'soft' art.

    Interesting... :)
  13. JayKayD

    JayKayD Meet my friend PAIN!

    Do you do Judo or do you just have Kano's book?
  14. Mutant

    Mutant New Member

    I've been judoka for 14 years.
  15. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I do judo, and I wasn't taught strikes. Today it's only taught by a select few clubs and even then it's in the form of a kata, which is probably the most unrealistic training drill known to man.
  16. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    One of my Judo coaches trains at a club where, from time to time, they get one guy to put on boxing gloves and throw big ass John Wayne punches at each other. They see if they can apply their throws against the most common of yob attacks, and they mostly can ;)
  17. pmitch89

    pmitch89 Thats Nucking Futs!!

    I take offense to this comment, please don't try to make me look stupid because it doesn't work.

    I do judo and the only time strikes are ever practiced is during kata, and even then the strikes are not meant to actually hit anyone.

    The only time I've heard of strikes in any form of judo is in combative jujitsu, are you sure you have your info right?
  18. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

  19. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Hmm, sounds a bit like some of the dodgy "let's assume that untrained people always throw crappy telegraphed punches" jitsu that I've experienced before, TBH.
  20. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Just a question Tim, how many real scraps have you been in/seen? I've personally lost count myself, between the scrapes I used to get in when I was an apprentice to the stuff I had to deal with when I worked the door.

    In my personal experience, I'd say the 'John Wayne punch' is the most common 'non-grip' preceded attack I've seen (if no weapons were involved). For Judo guys who's main aim is sports Judo, if they have limited time for this type of training, why not use this stimulus? Bearing in mind there aren't using the crappy-jitsu 'tappy' punch but are actually leathering each other (Judo guys are tougher than most give them credit for). A point of note is that the majority of that club do or have worked in stewarding.

    Also, the swinging punch is better for initial learning of Judo application against strikes due to the curved mechanics which lends itself to rear facing throws. If you have to start somewhere for SD, I'd say the progression should be:

    Big ass John Wayne punch
    Proper hook

    As that is the general list of difficulty in dealing with those shots, and if somebody is using the last 3 on you, he isn't Joe Generic yob.

    A further point of note is that may of the 'crosses' I've seen 'on da ub3r str33t' were actually overhand rights.

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