The most practical Traditional HapKiDo systems?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by SoKKlab, Jul 9, 2003.

  1. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Can anyone tell me what are, in their opinions, the most Practical HapKiDo systems?

    I'm not talking about Combat hapkido here, but stuff like Sin Moo etc?

    Practical as in not many throwing techniques without counterstrikes first, unless 'appropriate' (ie Straight over Hip throws) etc

    Any opinions?
     
  2. ZaCO

    ZaCO New Member

    I haven't really tried anything else than Sin Moo. But I think the way we train is quite practical (no forms, full contact sparring etc). And yes, we usually do counterstrikes before throws and when we train techniques against wrist grabs and such we always do something to distract the opponent (like hitting him or kicking him painfully) before trying any locks or throws.
     
  3. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Sounds like you've got some good Hapkido in Finland ZaCO.
     
  4. ZaCO

    ZaCO New Member

    IMHO it's the best one art around here (and I did a lot research before I started). It's a shame I can't train right now cause my wrist got broken a month ago. :( Two more weeks and then I'm back on the battle fields.
     
  5. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Hope your wrist doesn't give you anymore grief ZaCO,

    Do you or anybody else know if Master Gedo Chang teaches Sin Moo Hapkido, or is it another style?
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo


    I'm not quite sure how you would evaluate which is the most practical Hapkido system. In my personal opinion, it really comes down to the quality of instruction and the individual school over the name of the kwan. I guess I don't really understand your definition above of practical.

    From my own personal experience, I studied Moo Moo Kwan and Hyundae School Hapkido in Korea for over 2 years and I think these would qualify as traditonal Hapkido. I enjoyed them and loved the concentration on breakfalls, kicking techniques, and fairly small (easy to learn and remember) sets of self defence techniques/joint locks/ throws (by the way, the hipthrow you mention comes from Judo... Yoodo in Korean)/ and so on. By remaining fairly basic, and with lots of emphasis on pounding the basics, I feel that these schools produced very capable fighters (or defenders if you will).

    I will mention Combat Hapkido here because you brought it up. Keep in mind that Combat Hapkido (Cheon Doo Kwan) is a legitimate kwan under the World Kido Federation and its Grandmaster Pelligrini was award the title of founder and promoted to 9th dan. Two issues:
    (1) Is it practical? Extremely so. It really is (as the ads say) a compilation of the most effective techniques grafted on to a streamlined Hapkido base for the purpose of self defence. It encompasses what we call cross-training and fills in the gaps in weapons, ground fighting, striking, nd so. Very practical in my opinion.
    (2) Is it "traditional"? It is not tradional in a Korean way. It really takes the best techniques that it can from all the styles of the world. At the same time, it retains tradition by keeping the focus on the development of KI, on practical self defence, and on the mindset of the (idealized) Hapkido practioner.

    To me, I love the style of "tradional' Hapkido that I have learned and tested in. I also find the Combat Hapkido to be a very effective and practical style which really suits any and all cross-trainers. It really depends what you are looking for in Hapkido as to which will be the "most practical" to you. The bottom line as I see it is "which school has the best instructors and atmosphere where I can excell in this art?" Without that, it doesn't matter how "practical" the style is because you won't be learning it effectively anyway.
     
  7. HKD

    HKD New Member

    it's hard to say what is more practical than the other if U haven't trained them all. if U ask someone they will say of course there system is the more prictical. triditional hapkido in general is a very prictical system just the way it is. combat HKD says no high kicks but it U need to use a high kick U will. one wouldn't think that blocking a punch with a crescent kick would not be pricrial (this is tought in triditional HKD) but what if Ur arms are tied or some one is holding them or there broken? all of a suden Ur glad U learned to block a punch with a kick.

    HKD
     
  8. ZaCO

    ZaCO New Member

    I agree with Thomas that it really depends on the instructor, not on the style or even on the art.
     
  9. ZaCO

    ZaCO New Member

    Personally I don't like anything american except Coca-Cola. And Combat Hapkido sounds like just another McDonalds. And usually high ranking american black belts are quite full of them selves.

    I have read interviews about Ji Han Jae and I got the same picture that he was full of him self but then I met him personally a few months ago and he was a really nice old guy. So I could be wrong with all the americans too. :) If you asked me the best intructor I have ever had was Jürg Ziegler (9. dan).
     
  10. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Ok Cool,
    Thanks Guys. I don't really know how I'd define Practical in terms of Hapkido. I mean most of the Body throws and Defences are responses to Judo or Judo style throws, Right?
    And you could argue that these are a bit impractical because nobody wears a Gi in the street. Not my opinion BTW, just a case in point.

    Secondly, I just get confused as to what is Real Hapkido and what isn't. I've seen classes and teachers in different countries and the swathe of differences between some of them was, again, confusing.

    I guess what I'm asking is what is Real Hapkido and what isn't?

    Who are the best teachers and systems of Hapkido to learn from?

    (I know that this is subjective-but I'd be interested in getting a cross-section of opinions).
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Hmmm... I hope you are joking about this. If you doubt the sincerity of the ICHF, check out the site: www.ichf.com
    If you are curious about Grandmaster Pelligrini, he is a direct student of Seo, In-Sun, who was a DIRECT student of the (in most places) recognized founder of Hapkido, Choi, Yong-sul. GM Pelligrini's 9th dan is legitimate. (see http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/tree_seo__in-sun.html) for more information and access to the famy tree.

    By the way, you really should do some research before knocking the founder of a style, especially one that is held in such high esteem. GM Pelligrini is well known around the world. Want to see what he looks like and does? Check out the Black Belt Magazine from 2 months ago... yes, that's him on the COVER. Check out this month's issue of Combat Arts, he has a cameo inside. He also has been on 2 or 3 covers of Taekwondo Times. Oh and he is inthe Black Belt Magazine's Hall of Fame. And you know what the neatest thing is? Even as the founder of Comabt Hapkido, he goes and does small group seminars and teaches them himself, even though he has tons of money and a lot of masters (from various styles) who would do it for him. The best thing is that he takes time to speak to every single participant and a moment to chat with them. Big Ego? Not in my opinion. (Although it's only been two months since I last saw him... maybe he's changed?)

    By the way, I think you meant that Combat Hapkido sound's like another McDojo... not McDonald's. That's a fast food restaurant. And, by the way, Combat Hapkido is NOT a McDojo. It is a worldwide recognized system... see more details at www.ichf.com

    If you have any questions about the ICHF, I will try to answer them (although I am not an expert)... sorry for hijacking this thread, but I thought that uninformed slandering of GM Pelligrini was unwarranted. I personally don't care if you like Americans or not but I would recommend that you hold off your impression of a product/style of martial art/ anything else until you experience it... don't bash based on nationality alone... it makes you look very closed minded and immature.
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Sok Klab: Korean Style Hapkido

    In my personal experience, from Hapkido schools I studied at in Korea, my impression of "generic" Hapkido would be an emphasis on:
    1. Breakfalls (protection when falling or being thrown)
    2. Kicks (Hapkido has 100s of kicks, some of them unique to Hapkido) - ranging from a lot of low kicks which strike in different ways to spinning kicks and double kicks.
    3. hand strikes - We did a lot of open handed strikes and these led to grabs...
    4. Grabs leading to throws or locks
    5. Throws - even in Korea, we called them Yoodo-sool (Judo techniques) but used them with relish.
    6. Self defence with techniques used from all sorts of encounters, even up to multiple attackers. One main aspect I saw is that after we lock them or throw our opponent, we FINISH them on the ground, usually with a lock.
    7. Cultivation of "ki" through patterns, breathing exercises, and meditation.
    8. The mindset of fighting and defence instead of a competition type mindset.
    9. To a lesser degree (at mainly higher levels) - sports medicine.
    10. In Moo Moo Kwan, we also had hyeung-sae (forms/kata)... but this is not common to all Hapkido kwans.

    If anyone has any constructive comments on their perception of "generic" Hapkido, I'd be very interested in hearing them...
     
  13. ZaCO

    ZaCO New Member

    Thomas, I wasn't bash anyone I just had my doubts about the style which I didn't know much about. Because it was American? Yes cause it's the land of the opportunists. But after your post I'll have to take my words back. I knew all the stuff you posted but still I had my doubts. One thing I didn't know was what kind of respect does he have in the Hapkido community.

    It's just that I hate people who create new styles just for money and we have IMHO enough styles in Hapkido already. Everything really new is always welcome of course but I doubt every new hapkido style is offering anything truly new.

    McDonalds was mentioned cause I was trying to be humorous and i failed.

    One thing I knew about ICHF was that they had integrated Mark Shuey's cane system to the style. And I think it's great as I just love that weapon. :) In Sin Moo we also have cane tecniques but I think we aren't using Mark Shuey's system though. For more info on canemasters http://www.canemasters.com/.
     
  14. ZaCO

    ZaCO New Member

    Thomas, I would add to those points for Sin Moo Hapkido the boxing style strikes and defences, ground fighting and pressure points and 'chinese' medicine.

    My view of 'generic' Hapkido would be the same as in the book Hapkido: Tradition, Philosophy, Technique by Marc Tedeschi. He has big emphasis on pressure points and there are great descriptions about acupoints and meridians. So I would add these to your points. You didn't mention anything about weapons. These should also be included although weapons are usually taught to the black belts.
     
  15. Chris from CT

    Chris from CT Valued Member

    I can appreciate Thomas' point of view and his loyalty, but there are some difficulties with John Pellegrini's Hapkido credentials. This is something that I posted on another board recently and people here may find intersesting if not enlightening. As long as a person is training and they enjoy it, then that is what is important.

    With that being said, here are some of the issues most Hapkido practitioners have with John Pellegrini and Combat Hapkido...

    1)John Pellegrini received his first dan in Hapkido from the late Master Michael Wollmershauser in 1989-90 and then by 1992 he was an 8th dan and had created his own system of Hapkido.

    2)Pellegrini has said he has taken out what is unnecessary for self-defense application. On the other side of the coin it has also been said that, with his limited time studying Hapkido, it is questionable that he even knew the applicability of what “he never added” to his style and thereby never possessing some of what makes Hapkido, Hapkido.

    3)Pellegrini tagged his system with the term “Hapkido.” If he named it something else without the term Hapkido in it, he would probably have a few less naysayers within the Hapkido community given the previous two problems.

    I have seen good and bad Combat Hapkido practitioners just as I have seen good and bad Traditional Hapkidoists. It’s really what you make of it. Just be honest with yourself about what you want to get out of it. The style is good for what it is… a “Self-defense System.” If that is what you want, then that’s fantastic. No one can take that away from you. No matter what…enjoy what you do. :)

    Take care
     
  16. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Thanks Guys,
    For the Feedback. I'm still a little lost but am starting to get a better picture of what constitutes 'Real' Hapkido'.
     
  17. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -Thomas, while most of the posters here are great people, I have noticed among the members a few that seem to delight in bashing those who have accomplished far more than they ever will. GM P. is not the only BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME member that I've seen attacked. I realize that any segment of society has people like this who lack any semblence of integrity and choose to insult their betters. These people who's slogan seems to be "backbite the big dogs because they are the big dogs." Many also indulge in immature style bashing and nation-bashing as well. I am glad to see that I am not the only one who will step up and say this is wrong, these people have earned better than this. BTW-Regarding the original (idiotic and inflammatory) topc: It's quite obvious that anyone is going to feel that their own kwan is the best or they would belong to another. Within the hapkido community, there are some that are generally less regarded, but most practitioners have too much respect and integrity to bash them
     
  18. ZaCO

    ZaCO New Member

    Did you read the post where I took my words back about GM P? Altough Chris made some good points too. I'm quite a sceptic of nature so if someone has 8. or 9. dan that doesn't mean anything unless PROVEN. I'm studying physics and astronomy in the university. You can't just say things in there, you have to prove what you have said. :)
     
  19. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Oh No,
    Not more arguments. Can't we just answer the questions without going on about Politics?

    I'm just trying to find a good Hapkido school.....
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    A couple of points:

    ZaCo: thanks for clarifying your views.

    About weapons: I forgot to mention them! In Korea, we didn't really touch them until black belt level and then we worked with the short stick (very short), the bokken (mok gum), nunchaks, staff, cane, and a few others.

    I've seen the Marc Tadeshi (spelling?) book and it looks really good... right along with the stuff I did in Korea.

    Mark Shuey's Cane stuff is amazing... we had a bit at the last seminar I went to... neat stuff.

    Chris from CT: I know where you are coming from about the controversy over GM Pellegrini.
    Here is a link to his "founder certificate" from In-sun Seo: http://www.ichf.com/kidolg.jpg
    Also here is his "resume", so to speak:
    http://www.usadojo.com/biopellegrini.htm

    GM Pellegrini really is controversial and many of the "traditional" Hapkido organizations really are against him. He does have the certification and his own kwan, backed up by the World Kido Federation (and the Korean Kido Federation) and is a legitimate school of Hapkido.

    However, I do have to agree with some of the detractors and really emphasize that the Combat Hapkido is NOT traditional Hapkido and I think, based on its composition, should fall under a name different than Hapkido. The Korean influence of Taekwondo and Hapkido was very strong in the early years of development but since then Combat Hapkido really has become a form of Mixed Martial Art. I personally find it very effective, very open-minded, fun, exciting, practical AND very different from traditional Hapkido.

    Personally I love the ICHF organization and have learned so much from it. They really are a crew of people dedicated to teaching and learning without a great deal of emphasis on money. It is a real style and is very practical. GM Pellegrini and Combat Hapkido, in my opinion, have led to an increased worldwide interest in Hapkido, a tremendous collection of first rate training aids (books/videos/etc.), and provided an example of what can be done within a style towards accomodating all elements of self defence all around the world with great specialists involved, all while trying to keep much of the politics out of it.

    In my personal case (it's funny that you commend my loyalty), I started learning some of GM Pelegrini's Hapkido stuff back in 1994, when it was just making its way around. At that time, my master (who is a charter member with the ICHF and has been close for years) brought in pretty much "pure" Hapkido to our classes from GM Pellegrini. From there I went to Korea and got into Hapkido, eventually earning my 1st and 2nd dan while I was there. When I returned in 2001, the ICHF had grown and expanded and I found my Hapkido techniques quite different from what the Combat Hapkido Federation was doing. At first, I was a bit leery of this being "Hapkido". But once I got into it and saw the incredible opportunities for cross training and the amazingly open attitude (and awesome instructors) available at seminars (as well as the vidoes and the stuff my master was bringing in to class), I was sold. I have applied for dan grade in Combat Hapkido but am waiting to see if my previous grade wil be acknowledged or if I will have to test from some other level.

    About the good and bad practioners... I wholeheartedly agree... no matter what system or country you are in... it happens.
     

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