The Minotaur: The Singh Family Wooden Dummy

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by ANGELSGYMSINGH, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Just because the mirror explained to you where the problem lies does not make it a universal solution

    HAHAHAHA! If you actually trained instead of talking crap I might actually consider your opinion with hearing

    I do understand it - A meaningless distinction made by small minds with small empires - and indicative of your lack of experience or ability....perhaps Singh will allow you a few rounds on the Minotaur

    The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence" and the plural of "absolute crap" is not "fact" - this might explain your problem with cogency

    I also know and understand far more than some coward who will not even name their supposed training - I debate freely with experienced and PROVEN IMA guys and guess what? We actually agree on pretty much everything....leaving some no mark like you as the dissenting voice...guess who is likely to be correct? (clue: His surname ain't Locksley)

    Show me then - if I am wrong i will happily admit it and back down. As often as not I will not move only when it comes down to a simple difference of opinion or taste

    Evasions noted - for someone so obsessed with internal things I would have thought you might actually possess a backbone...apparently not

  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Since we have clip to watch, it may be fun to have deeper discussion on this. I watched this clip again and this is what I have observed,

    A - German guy,
    B - Taiji master,
    Sticky model - your arm stick (toouch) on your opponent's arm.
    Hook model - your hand/arm hook (wrap) on your opponent's body.

    - The speed was too slow. In reality, the combat speed should be much faster.
    - A was playing B's game. In reality, A should move in and move back in combat speed and tried not to let B to stick on his arm. You want to apply Tinjin on your opponent. At the same time, you don't want your opponent to apply Tinjin on you.
    - A did not have "plan". The most common plan is trying to grab on B's wrist first (to build temporary hook). A should then move into B's elbow joint (major hook). After that, A should move into B's neck, shoulder, waist, ... (minor hook).
    - A didn't have "monster grip". A also didn't have good understanding on the "contact points" (where and how to grab). Both are extream important in no-gi environment.

    Again, you may prefer the "sticky" model instead of the "hook" model, but you can't prevent your opponent from applying the "hook" model on you. There is nothing wrong with the sticky model. It may not be enough IMO. To familiar with the "hook" model will help you to know how your opponent will act to you. This is why I believe the "hook" model should be integrated into both Taiji push hand and WC Chi Shou.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    I agree.... "B" had more skill by comparason. As he should... he was the Master. Question why has the only Chinese Wrestler who has been confident enough to fight in Western MMA contests not done very well and in fact can not even get near the UFC for lack of talent... I have seen the way your style trains.. it is very very impressive.... this guy has all that training as he was a Chinese Champ.... Why the disconnect in performance John?

    Oh and thanks for the analysis... I would love to see you negotiate the Minotaur.... I am sure I would learn alot...
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The Chinese wrestler can perform pretty well in Sanda/Sanshou rule set. Since the ground game is missing, it doesn't work well in MMA yet. Chinese wrestling will need to integrate kick, punch, and ground game. I'm sure 100 years from today, the picture will be different.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Sorry bro missed this earlier!

    Yeah they are pretty damn tough. Mine is actually a knock off version (hence cheaper) I got from here

    So far it has been ground n' pounded, suplexed, body slammed, ground flowed, twisted and torqued.......and a couple of times it took a People's elbow. It's still ticking!
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    How does the Minotaur take a push or a "sail" out of interest?
  7. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    Off topic troll post.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2012
  8. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Off topic. Not necessary now troll post removed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2012
  9. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    Finally! Thank you very much for the response. I posted that and have checked every day to see if it has a reply and thought that maybe I was being a jerk or something and you guys were ignoring me!

    When I find the money to splurge on something like that I think I might. I'm always worried about leather workout products. Thank you for the recommendation on your experience with it.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    The Push aint so easy on the Minotaur

    Very very good question brother... Like I said, although coming out to remind me of the Greek Myth of Theseus and the Minotaur... it was built to structurally to follow Wu Mengxia's annotations on the Nine Songs of Taiji Boxing. One of those songs is the Yin/Yang song: You can observe what it makes me do when I am flowing with it and decide to go from a press to a push. It is like nothing is there. I mean the force is there when I begin pushing but in the end it dissapears... Like a very highly skilled opponent. It teaches me how it feels to hide the transformation of heavy to light to empty through substantial and insubstantial movement. If I happen to push after spiralling the Minotaur it will attract me into emptiness or if my hand is locked inside the arms it will throw me with my own momentum.... So, it has taught me that a push aint so easy on a body that is centered, circular, sunken and spirically rythmical.... And its not the Minotaur as a creation that is doing this so I can not take credit for that.. its the continued experientation to have it follow laws of physics that is doing it....

    Here is the part that by treatise, which describes the physics, that answers your question:

    When crossing hands with an opponent and one feels lightness in his/her projected heaviness (ungrounded) then immediately issue a hit at the collapsing point or when the response to one’s pressure is to tense-up their muscles and freeze the skeleton. One should flow or “do not slightly remain” when such strength is grounded and non-resisting to pressure as this is when an opponent is felt to have a lightness within his/her heaviness. This interaction can be observed as substantial and insubstantial (one leg-side heavy/weighted and the other leg-side light/un-weighted) movement to avoid double-weightiness.

    To neutralize this phenomenon you must do as the treatise says in the Eight Word Method and Empty Full Songs... when directing energy forward the weight must be on the rear foot against such a trained opponent. This is applicable when dealing with him face to face... However, if you can seek the flank and control elbow and shoulder then you can direct force forward and have that weight on the front foot... he will be hard pressed to counter you and can only escape through good footwork.... most likey a circular footwork found in the highest levels of Taiji Quan and the basic parts of Bagua... Believeit or not Mayweather used this wisdom when he fought Cotto but within the rules of Boxing and in a very samll circle manner. As Cotto got him an a corner and started wailing with a flurry of punches that seemed dead solid perfect in a linear fashion... Mayweather started a Shoulder roll and leaned to and fro as in a Weeble Wobble... Cotto could not taouch him and got tired doing so... The perfect example of greater and lesser Yin/Yang... the exhaustion of speed is slowness and the the exhastion of slowness, unbelievably so, is speed. Every so methodically and rather slowly by comparison... Mayweather sought the flank and picked him apart.... I lost money on that fight because I did not listen to my own research... Idiot I am

    If I have brought interest to you through this concerning how to find the flank in this manner then please read into the Dilligence Song. Here is a taste:

    When meeting an opponent’s Ward-off and one is unable to enter, by only sticking and adhering, it is difficult to gain the advantage. When sealed shut by ward-off then one should execute the methods of plucking and splitting, grasp the handles firmly because in short there will be nothing to hold. Control the transformations of the four straights and four angles because upon hand contact the first to act in this way will prevail.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Another reason why this is a good question is that it makes me see that the Minotaur aint for everyone. Based on my answer to you I realize that most people do not and can not move in an insubstantial/Substantial manner. This is a higher level skill and only like people would use it. It is only applicable when the feet are stationary however if one can spiral during transition from posture to posture in a linear or circular active foot path then it would be applicable... Again very very high level skills... add striking and grappling with this and a pugilistic conditioning regimen of internal and external exercises and you have what the masters call.. A Peerless Boxer....

    I will work on this with the Minotaur for a while to see if I can improve my speed and spiralling during transition with the devise.... I can tell you this... my root is getting much stronger and it was pretty dood before.... With the exercises that Hannibal gave me to add I think I can do it....

    Oh.. funny thing happened the other day when doing Form... I was performing the eight paths during stationary silkreeling but holding the breath when I was leading it to the meridian junctures and holding attention there.... When releasing it my body spasmed in a controlled way... it like jumped from one position to another... like when a reptile moves or a bird moves when turning its head to see from differnt angles or position the body at diffeent angles.... then it lockd in that posture... freakin weird... felt good.... I think its the process that includes the devise training that is doing it... Respect

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Western and Eastern Internal Pugilism is the Future for MMA & CQC

    I agree John... and I hope others in this thread are listening .... I believe that you are corect.. In 100 year or sooner it will be different. My article in this mag Kungfu Online Magazine ... It talks about Internal Pugilism ... my family style... you have been a witness to the birth of this style with my first book which was about Illusive Pugilism... In fact you helped me work through vetting it in MAP.... (For the rest who are reading this, thie thread was wonderful and very good reading on the Art of Western Tai Chi Chuan....)

    Internal Pugilism gives props to the internal side of what Persian and Asian martial systems. It is the source of evolving Modern Pankration and Pammachon (MMA and CQC) into what the ancient Greco-Romans called Pyrrics (War Dance or Forms) and Pneuma (Bio-energy Breathing). We lost those alot of those methods with the fall of Rome and the rise of the Catholic Church. It takes forums like MAP bringing well researched and serieous artists to put it all Many say that my posts are too high-brow. You and I are older warriors but we remember Brue Lee. W remember that The Tao of JKD came from a Wushu and Wing Chun Warrior Scholar with a BA in Philosophy. His need for acceptance is a lesson to someone like me who follows in the wake of his innovative spirit.

    From studying him I have learned that respect to the Persian and Asian cultures that have refined and cultivated Greek Pammachon into the Chan Buddhist modern spritual warrior ethos that has spawned the Shaolin merger of internal and external method is the true root of what our Western Martial Greatness.. However it is the internal methods that will make our way important to the world and make all styles irrelivent so long as they follow an intenrally pugilistic curriculum.

    The Minotaur is the result of the evolution from Illusive Pugilism to Internal Pugilism. I do not show it but it does go to the ground. You have to be very conditioned in the classic sense way concerning hands, elbows, shins, head because there is no use of gloves and the covering of the devise must be Hemp covering the wood... Liniment and jing luo must be learned.. again the Minotaur could be added to your systems repitoire ...

    What do you think...
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  13. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    We have 2 groups of thinking here, those who believe that we should

    - keep everything pure. Any outside integration will cause the system to be watered down.
    - expand and evolve. Otherwise it will be out of date.

    I just saw a Chinese movie 陣頭(Din Tao). The boy who disrespected the tradition when he was young. That caused his father to dislike him. Later on he evolved the tradition and added modern elements into his father's traditional art. His father hated him big time untill his father's teacher said, "Evolution and change are always good for the traditional art".

    [ame=""]ã€é™£é**】æ*£å¼é*告片 1/20撼動上æ˜* - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    To all of the many viewers that have contributed to this thread: I wish to give my sincere appreciation. You have found my mistakes in presentation and I have learned to be more specific. You have found my errors in conclusion and I have learned to connect my research branches to see commonality. You have found my lack of comprehensive terminology and I have learned to find value in overlooked training methods.

    Master John Wang's last post is the best way to end this part in the introduction of the Minotaur which is the first unique training tool produced by Singh Family Internal Pugilism. When the final product is ready it is my hope that it will serve this community as it has come to serve my family. Much love and respect.... Dr. Gurjot K. Singh

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Minotaur Rigpa: Internal Boxing Wooden Dummy

    [ame=""]The Minotaur Rigpa: Internal & External Regimens - YouTube[/ame]

    Almost 4000 views on this thread... It is awesome. Although there will be many instructional videos on the use of this device I thought that with all the questions about its internal aspects that I discussed in depth, there should be a video that shows what I learned from the exchange of ideas.

    I now know what the device means to me as an Adept and what it can do for a very small group of Martial Artists. I know that the concept, although unknown to me in significance at the time of the thread, may have come from my inspired reading of Theseus and the Minotaur... in reality the manifestation of this devise resembles in intent and form of the Vajra Pestle originating from the Vajrayama Sect of Buddhism... Moreover, my own personal path although religiously Sikh, from the martial perspective and method of self-realization is well represented by the Dzogchen Sect of the Vajrayama. he definition and contxtual meaning described my personal martial arts journey and expression of self so well it came as a shoch that my behavior was well documented in Vedic Lore. May you all be so fortunate to find out where you belong when you feel you may be on the fringe of acceptance. For those of you who have noticed the additional word naming the device (Rigpa) an important note is required:

    In a Dzogchen context, rigpa (Skt. vidyā; Tibetan: རིག་པ་, Wylie: rig pa) is the knowledge that ensues from recognizing one's nature. At the trekchö level, one knows that there is a primordial freedom from grasping his or her mind (sems). The opposite of rigpa (vidyā, knowledge) is marigpa (avidyā, ignorance).
    "A Dzogchen Master STARTS with "direct introduction" with everyone. If they don't "get it" then one starts to use all the infinite methods and means to help bring about the experience of Rigpa. When one has the experience of Rigpa, then one confirms the validity of one's path now being "remaining with Rigpa" as path. Then, one simply continues in that state. Rigpa is the view to be experienced, Rigpa is the path to be followed, and Rigpa is the fruit of the path. There is no change in Rigpa, either in the beginning, middle or end. The fruit is your first realization of Rigpa. There are no Stages of Rigpa. Thogel does not modify Rigpa." ——Dudjom Rinpoche on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje

    The revision of my book, due out next year, and the article series posted in the thread, danced around this idea due to my own ignorance of vedic lore and science. I should have put more emphasis on it as I have come across the story of Indra, Vitra and the Sage Dachichi. Now I must do some rewriting... lol...

    I think my friend Hannibal was a small but important part of this puzzle of self discovery when he pointed out how important Gada training is to silk-reeling. In the video description I thank him.

    For those just coming on to read the thread thankyou for the interest. And I hope that the thread inspires you to create devices to help you realize your own nature, power and interpretation of Martial Systems..... Much love and respect......
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  16. Lily

    Lily Valued Member

    What just happened here? :confused:

    Someone give me a Cliff's Notes version please.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    For the Warrior Scholar

    Thanks for commenting Lily.... It would be clearer if you were following the thread. About the Vedic lore stuff and the connections it might take alittle martial scholarship to get anything out of it. Martially speaking there are great spiritual insights to understanding how Buddhist mythology, as it relates to incorporating internal alchemy into our training regimens. I find this to be true more and more even in my advancing years.

    There is a standard book for Western scholars of Martial Science called, The Bodhisattva Warrior by Shifu Nagaboshi Tomito formerly known as (Terence Dukes). Th reference is arguably the most powerful meaning foundational or radical (meaning from the root) message for traditional training methods ever written by a Westerner.

    This thread is mostly for Warrior Scholars as the majority of information comes form treatise both Western and Eastern in the science of conditioning mind, body and spirit towards becoming a peerless boxer.... If you wish to know more about my work please check out my other threads.... Respect
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  18. Lily

    Lily Valued Member

    I just like punching people and getting punched, god I miss that. Thanks for the reply though, best of luck with whatever you are going on about.
  19. Wastelander

    Wastelander Valued Member

    The external martial arts side of it, which is what I was involved in, is mostly how to use the device Mr. Singh developed to train trapping, locking, and controlling while conditioning the user's strength, endurance, sensitivity and balance. There was also an off-shoot discussion about other traditional conditioning tools.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Wastlander is da man

    Dude thanks for schooling me again. Its because of people like you that I became a supporter of MAP. Your explanation of the possibilities of external benefits one might get from using the Minotaur Rigpa is outstanding. I will be using it on the description of the device. Much respect...

    Here is the first lesson on how to apply external methods that enhance combative skill and prventive health...

    [ame=""]The Minotaur Rigpa (Lesson One): Combining Health & Combat Exercises - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012

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