The Minotaur: The Singh Family Wooden Dummy

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by ANGELSGYMSINGH, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    He makes more sense to you because he is just showing and mostly doing external stuff and only throws in the internal word for some speech effect.

  2. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    He's doing a whole lot more than you though.

    He has been brave enough to show videos of his training and also been accepting and gracious when faced with criticism.

    I know who is the greater man.
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So, that lineage is...?

    Fact is that you offer nothing to these discussions except a misplaced sense of adequacy which you certainly are not entitled to. Your opinions are wrong, your conclusions laughable and your theories the worst kind of popular are a poor scientist Dr Venkman
  4. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    Blah, Blah , Blah, It is not my fault that you don't understand anything, try looking in the mirror, that is where the problem is.

    If you had more experence and training you might not have such a problem understanding things, if someone tries to teach calculus to a kinder gardener, they will not understand anything either, until they take all the courses needed before calculus.

    If you want to understand "internal" you need to do it first, external stuff will not give you any reference for understanding internal stuff.

    If you don't like my posts I suggest you go to the JKD forum which are all external, not internal talk forums, to which you have shown that you know nothing and don't want to know anything. But yoru constantly post as a "nah sayer" no matter what facts are given to you.

    I have read some other posts where you keep saying the same dumb things over and over after people have given you plenty of proof to support their position.

    So you have shown that view is very limited and closed, which just shows why you don't understand things,so your opinion does not mean much to me,
    unless we were talking about external arts, but everyone knows that stuff.

  5. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Preliminary for now Im just a tad busy, so let Robin gas away on these - maybe without wordy evasion of "you don't understand" etc :-

    BTW, evasion is a damm useful internal skill to have (it has to come from your core and result in whole body movement to be effective), the art of not being where your opponent thinks you are. If your fighting skill is as evasive as your words, then maybe you do have something, hoho

    Q1)What do you consider to be valid reference standpoints for "internal"?
    Q2) What "internal" experience do you have?
    Q3) What "external" experience do you have?
    Q4) How do you personally differentiate between "Internal" and "external"?
    Q5) Are "internal" or "external" mutually exclusive? - or are there any areas of overlap/commonality?
    Q6) Do you have anything constructive to add?
    Q7) When are you going to contribute something constructive on MAP?
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012
  6. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Why bother asking when he's never going to answer those questions?
  7. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Evasion is useful, baiting is also useful, so sometimes you have to throw the fish something to catch onto.

    So far there has not been one question from Robin of Loxley.
  8. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Robinhood succeeds in making TaiJiLou look like Yang Lu Chan's little brother and annointed successor.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    It is your fault that we have to put up with your pathetic irrelevant and vaccous (an internal void there?) bleatings about nothing.
  10. Devil Hanzo

    Devil Hanzo Doesn't tap to heel-hooks

    I LOL'd. I did.
  11. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I practice Sun family arts.The fundamental requirement is the practice of san ti shi which I practice without fail everyday.This is followed by taiji form or xingyi forms plus plenty of push hands with my instructor.I train at his house in a very informal manner.Other training is in qigong specific to Sun family arts.This is nothing special,just a method of bringing chi to the hands and projecting it into a circle in front of the hands.Ultimately the student opens the ren and du channels and realises emptiness.The end result of correct taiji practice is the same as that of Taoist meditation,the realising of emptiness.I might be wrong but this is probably the same as the awakening of the Kundalini Shakti in Hindu yoga.Where the Taoist or Buddhist would realise emptiness the Hindu would experience union with God.

    In my opinion the method should be a simple as possible as this gives the student the best chance of obtaining a result.Thousands of books have been written on Buddhism but it all comes down to recognising impermanence,suffering and no-self in every moment. Easy to write about but very difficult to do in practice.
  12. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Meaner gardeners are the best.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Robinhood makes a good point... I have not discussed the internal and how the Minotaur helps in the process of refining essense into energy and cultivating energy into spiritual vitality. Robinhood nor anyone else has to divulge their secrets of training to be accepted by me but their knowledge gained through experience and relentless study is always down to be srutinized. This includes me too so let me begin the discussion with what I have just introduced: The Three Treasures.

    The Minotaur aids in the last of last aspect of the three treasures, Spiritual Vitality. There are many classical explanations of this term but the most appropriate for me to cite are the ones from Master Li I Yeuh's 5 Character Secret and from the Wu clan of Warrior Scholars from the book: Tai Chi Secrets of Wu Style by Dr. Yang and Jwing -Ming. I like Dr. Yang who is the Founder of the YMMA Publishing Group.

    My understanding of Master Li's sense of Spiritual vitality comes from his definition of Concentrated spirit or when everything is working together... Without mind interfering... Wow... this means that we have trained so hard and our intent is surrendered so deeply to the committment of following, linking, adhering, sticking, never releasing and never resisting that is performed unconciously..... The Pranayam knows that the mind seeks 6 things by vedic definition (Change, Action, Supression, Ideation, Physicality and continuity) so to be of no mind means to be free of these directed thoughts. An old vedic manta helps one discipline the will to concentrate spirit: Keneshitnam patati prishitnam manoh, Sohan Shivohan or What power directs my mind to desired objects? The power of that power I bow to with folded hands because the power of that power I am!!!

    The Kuji Kiri or nine hands cutting can direct a very dilligent adepts mind in the same manner but with mudras to aid in the sinking of the will beyond the senses. This is of course impractical when we talk about pushhands execution. But here is where Dr Yang comes in with the idea of Drumming and Vibrating. Words do not describe this phenomenon but it is said to be called by traditionalist's "Picking up the Wave Flower or Random Picking up Flowers". Ma Yu liang (spelling) in this video demonstrats this and the physics is explained by a very smart patron of Youtube who corrects me.... I did more research and what I found will come out in my next revision... however I have a video on youtube showing me do some spooky stuff to an MMA fighter learning pushhands... How I did it I could not replicate at the time but believe I have learned to through the development of the Minotaur.. Here is the vid of Master Ma Yu Liang

    [ame=""]Tai Chi Chuan Grandmaster Ma Yu Liang push hands - YouTube[/ame]

    To me Internal skill is measured through External Regimen. This means that my observed physical performance is enhanced primarily through my Seated and Standing Meditative regimens. In practical terms... If I have a 6 hour training schedule 2/3rds of that time is spent in meditation. I know I have power when I can still myself standing or sitting for at least one hour of conscious breathing manipulation in an asana or proprioceptive posture..

    My First step in training my three treasures is through a microcosmic regimen that includes Vedic and Taoist breathing and asana method. It is still being cultivated. Here the heart pulse fire is practiced until felt at the meridian junctures. When the will leads the breath to the lower dan tien Fire is met with the water of my essence... I do the work...;nuff said

    My second step is the application of Small Cosmic Circulation normally using the 8 paths meditative method when the limbs are opened but static and when they are dynamic as in Internal Boxing stationary, Circular or Linear Forms. Standing static the 5 element breathing method is best for me because it extends spirit (or the concentrated attention that surpresses the sensations of the 5 senses) to the breath thus leading it through the Zhong Fu meridian pathways. When standing and moving the 8 paths is best because the will leads the breath through the extraordinary merdian pathways.

    Next is my third step, Measuring the cultivation of spiritual vitality:

    Part One: Where Fire and Water are the elemental guides of meditation, it is metal and wood which are the guides of translating internal skill into external manifestation or power. The most exhilarating manner to do this is through perfecting the silkreeling methods shown in the video for the Minotaur. With the addition of Hannibals correction to my regimen, I now integrate Gada and Brassring training together becuase they 1st test of how much skill and power I have gained to manipulate my extraordinary meridian and Zhong Fu meridian vessels. I use these external regimens to because they externally represent the simplicity of the concept circle and point. When my breahing is deep and steady to include a speedy recovery if the exercises are conducted in an aerobic manner when I know I am ready to practice Internal Boxing armed and unarmed forms.

    Part Two: I am now to practice my armed and unarmed Forms in a manner consistent with building towards the ability to vibrate and drum. This means that my movements ade sunken, circular, centered and rythmical while conforming to the 5 Character Secret and the Confounding Round Song (Spiralling, Sunstantial and Insubstantial movement). I collect, circulate, discharge and collect while I refine essence and cultivate energy. I am now ready to share energy with the element of Wood.

    For better or worse what you saw was a 50's guy expressing his spiritual vitality by sharing and melding energy with the Minotaur. In between long moments of talking and pausing to explain the guy was moving in what seemed as being in sync with the Minotaur which is a 200lbs plus wooden Weeble Wobble with arms. Between takes on that I showed how those movements translate in my family style of pushhands in an uncoreographed session. I believe that the Minotaur as an external prformance devise very closely allows me to replicate the internal skill necessary to move as I moved without significant effort for over 5 mins.., I can do this for an hour a a much faster pace for an hour without the significant taxing of my body. I believe the Minotaur is a part of my being able to demonstrate this. As you can tell in the vids I can do it to a person and I state this because I believe if I can do it using this method then... anyone can do it using the method...

    Robinhood, I now have explained in a small way what I mean by internal and external methods and how they relate to the use of the Minotaur. I also have explained a standard of performance that I believe has merit in the description of how internal skill can be measured using the Brassring Training and Gada training in preparation of using the Minotaur. I want to remind you that this seated/standing meditation, brassring/gada, armed and unarmed form and then Minotaur training is literally a 4-6 hour experience per day or more if friends come over... lol... and this is daily... I think the program is worth mentioning because of this and I am obviously looking to better it as much as I can by listening to and learning from people in this forum that have different experiences and success than I have to include those with less than, as much or more knowledge than I have.

    Now this gives you the opportunity to constructively critique my work which I submit to you in kindness and as a fellow martial artist looking to learn and not put down anything you do. Please do not mistake kindness for weakness as I have and will accept critique but only wish to converse with martial artists with cultivated manners and refined edicate. I really love the MAP Forum and the attention this thread is getting should invite brighter and not shadow bodies into the energy it has created... Respect to all and thanks for putting up with this long post...

    I want to stop the bickering before the Admin guy gets involved....

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    For the question as to whether the pushhands regimen can really help against a person who wants to grasp .....

    [ame=""]Wu Tai Chi Chuan Pushhands Seminar å´å¼å¤ªæžæ‹³ - YouTube[/ame]
  15. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Getting back to more worldly matters I feel one thing that might not be in the Minotaur's favour when it comes to marketing is its weight.A 200lb plus object is going to attract very high shipping costs and is almost impossible to sell internationally via the net.A way of making it viable would be to have it manufactured in China thus reducing the costs.Orders could then be sent directly from China with the lower manufacturing costs offsetting the high shipping costs.Over the years I have known numerous people shy away from buying a piece of equipment due to the high shipping charges.

    The alternative is to design an inflatable Minotaur that can be filled with water.Might also feel more like a real human body.
  16. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads


    Those bloody plants have been getting away with way too much for way too long.

    Somebody oughtta put them in their proper place.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    I wish I had not thought of that... would have saved money... lol

    Without weighting it weighs 95lbs.. weight is set for the person.... Chinese won't build this.. if they could they would have.. lol.. it really is the first of its kind ever built in the world.. mostly bcause of my quirky needs as an Internal Pugilist.. Again this thing is a part of my thesis, primarily for my practice and enhancement as a Martial Artist. By the way... Alot of Chinese Masters know my work... they definitely know of the Minotaur..... they have been contacted.... no response yet.... <smile>... maybe because it sucks... maybe because my system sucks..... I just train.. research... write.... blog.... train.... waited for the challange ... nothing so far .. but I can say this

    The only way to make a pushhands device that does what this thing does is how I have made it... I know hard to believe... but mucho dinero has gone into research, failure, testing, designing, redesigning and building this monster... Orders have alrady been requested... That is not why I am here... I am here to get stuff like Hannibal and Putrid just gave me.. info to improve associatd training methods... and..

    Inspire people to create things to better reinforce their own training style. The Mionotaur will only really appeal to those who dont want to build their own stuff and have found no other substitute for Pushhands training they can do without a human partner. Or those who prefer working with something other than a human partner and can improve their skills this way because they have a great ammount of Fighting experience. This will pretty much be directed towards seasoned combat athletes who train in a similar manner and have the same or greater skill set then I do.... So as much as it surprises people I really do not think most people will be able to purchase this when it goes on the market.

    This thing is also set as a part of my plan to purchase and institute an Internal Boxing Retreat in Belize... For Recovering Soldiers and Creative People who wish to use my way of Internal Pugilism to act as a muse... for painting, music writing or performance, sculpting etc...

    Thanks Putrid with the suggestions. I wish I had not thought of them but I did.. even wasted money bulding them... lol .. no the effort was worth it ... The Minotaur is an awesome pushhands device and if you aint training with something similar you might want to rethink crossing hands with someone who does in a competitive manner.. well one that also follows a similar regimen that I do.... they are out there... thats why i train to good enough be allowed one day to share theor energy...
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012
  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    [ame=""]Wu Tai Chi Chuan Pushhands Seminar å´å¼å¤ªæžæ‹³ - YouTube[/ame]

    This is one good example that Taiji push hand can continue because his opponent did not apply any "hook" principle such as:

    - head lock,
    - over hook,
    - under hook,
    - arm wrap,
    - wrist grab,
    - mantis arms,
    - bear hug,
    - ...

    Both "Taiji push hand" and "WC Chi Shou" refuse to get into "clinch" training that I truly don't understand the reason behind it. Most time you have to deal with opponents from other styles, and not from your own style. To feel comfortable within your own style environment is not good enough IMO.

    In the following clip, we can clearly see that the "sticky (easy to break apart)" concept may not work that well. The "hook (hard to break apart)" concept is much more useful.

    [ame=""]Shuai Jiao macth MOV00210.AVI - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Oh... Wu Mengxia's (and alittle translation from me for my book revision) annotations on the Yin and Yang Song is important with regard to the way the Minotur is structured to resemble... This is what you feel. This is what it makes you do. This is what you learn.... but more importantly you can apply your form to application and make sure you you know that what you have learned may possibly work. This does not mean that if you can do it on the Minotaur you can do it to a person with perfection... but If you can not do it on the Minotaur then you certainly could not do it on a person.... Something to argue and debate... and I loe it when you guys go after my stuff in critique... makes sure I got my bases covered in the upcoming article..... Thanks

    Light in heavy, empty in full and vice versa, respectively, must be sensed and acted upon without the slightest obstruction. Grappling and Striking methods do not generally exceed these three skill concepts: Light, heavy and empty. If one feels lightness (ungrounded) in heaviness (resistance) then one should quickly attack to uproot and/or un-structure the opponent. During this process if one can conceal transforming empty to full when becoming light to heavy then one can use Small-coordinated strength to control and overcome “awkward” Big strength. When crossing hands with an opponent and one feels lightness in his/her projected heaviness (ungrounded) then immediately issue a hit at the collapsing point or when the response to one’s pressure is to tense-up their muscles and freeze the skeleton.
    One should flow or “do not slightly remain” when such strength is grounded and non-resisting to pressure as this is when an opponent is felt to have a lightness within his/her heaviness. This interaction can be observed as substantial and insubstantial (one leg-side heavy/weighted and the other leg-side light/un-weighted) movement to avoid double-weightiness. Two adepts engaged in this manner will be seen to lean to and fro like a weeble-wobble dummy when stationary and like a gliding snake while in movement. They both seek the horizontal of each other’s flanks while following, linking, adhering, sticking and never releasing or resisting while maintaining contact. Such opponents are skillful Taiji Quan adepts who understand and can execute the unity of opposites which is the key to executing the Eight Cosmic Taijitu-Bagua Trigram Circle Changes and the Wujing Five Elemental Phases which the Founders of Modern Taiji Quan Monastery and Family styles call the Thirteen Postures:
    1). Straight and Angular approaches are revealed through a knowledge of the Taijitu-Bagua Trigram Circles relational description of the Eight Cosmic Changes and the Wujing power of creation and destruction through use of the natural proclivities of the Five Elemental Steps.
    2). Energy is received and released through knowledge and application of the Confounding Round.
    3). Swallowing-in and Spitting-out is brought about by attending through use of the grappling methods of warding off, rolling back and pressing to deflect or attach to an opponent in order to uproot him/her through a aggressive push that sets up the use of the Seven Stars.
    4) One spits-out and releases with firmness and swallows-up and receives in gentleness.
    5). When emptying one is firm and when one is filling one is gentle: Empty and fill at the enemies collapsing point which is the event of an enemy transformation which must be intercepted, attended or hit prior to an opponent’s intention to execute an emptying or filling method.
    6). Single and double weighted-ness is caused by a abundance or lack or of substantial and insubstantial movement.
    6 ½). Being weighted is the first part of proper, postural structure which is being sunken (grounded), soft, circular, centered, rhythmical and a-rhythmical.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Look again bro

    The German guy tried to do all those things on this guy and nothing worked... His root was phenomenal in comparison to the German guy... Now the German guy may have been very weak... but he was a capable enough practitoner against other opponents... Skill was the key factor... Heck they guy actually hooked him several times and was shook off... Some of this skill was external... some was obviously internal as the Wu Master was not winded nor was he using anything other than skill to uproot and unstructure his opponent...

    Now he may not be able to do that to you John... but that remains to be seen... As for me I would perform the Yin Yang Song application on him because it was all in the concepts of transforming and hiding transforming from light to heavy to empty.... I also would have sought his flank with foot movement... become more circular or bagua like to find holes at his collasping points like the song said... Now John are you familiar with the 13 Methods Trainin gand Dilligence Songs and the Eight Word Method Song? there is much wisdom here and I have used it to great benefit ... here is a small example.. a down to earth example as Putrid would say....and you have decades of experience so I expect a great challange to my thinking on this factoid from Master Mengxia: With the knowledge that there are 3 parts to any throw (Unbalancing, Wrapping and uprooting) I believe the following Mengxia strategy will defeat it and in fact that is what the Minotaur was built to practice doing... Sorry to bate but this is fun and I know you have alot of knowledge in wrestling... so school me as I may not be interpreting this correctly...

    Within three exchanges there are two roll backs, one press and push when joining hands and encountering ward-off don’t be the first to surrender. When there is firmness within gentleness one’s attack cannot be defeated so descend when pressing and ascend when lifting (pushing). Strength goes to startling rebound strength (Short energy) and screwing movement (Circular turns and pivots with plucking and splitting methods). Showing aggression, forge ahead and stick to the body with the elbow. Be the first to hit and hit and bump with the shoulders, hips and knees.

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