The meaning of kali

Agree... use more tact gary.

Not too helpful for a fruitful discussion.

So what?

Not really, those "weapons" except the barong(who owns a barong anyway?) are just for usual concealed carry, even there, gun rules.

There were no takers because no man in his right mind will want a duel with Tatang. And oosh was right, you took the phrase out of context.

You're all blade all the time guy? (no disrespect intended to sayoc guys). But what's wrong with batons?

Still, the direct or indirect link to the term kali is awfully missing.

There is an sport aspect in every MA. Sportive or conbative, they both have their pros and cons depending on what framework you want to work on. But you see, you're downgrading FMA to mere muggers "art" which is downright false. The founder of bahala na escrima is a war hero and the bahala na gang you mentioned are purely thieves and ex-cons who knew nothing about FMA. You're getting mixed-up.

Again, no so tactful gary. You can do better than this. You can convince us if you'll just give us a few facts. Slashes on Lucy Arnis, the only true mother art won't do you or the discussion any good.

cheers.

 

Barong, Kris ... are the weapons of the filipino muslims -aprox 5% of the total population. Even among them those weapons are seldom used, firearms are generally prefered except for close quarter in jungle warfare...

The weapons of choice in the PI are firearms and knifes (ice picks..).

 

Kalis=Sword

When looking at the proper quote I see the term Kalis at the end. Are you translating that to mean sword or the specific sword we have been mentioning?

Thank you for the information and the web pages. As I have mentioned in the last few posts FMA is a killing art and not to be confused with the sport that the nation is trying to claim as the heritage. If that is the only heritage and the sport they want remembered that is in its self, good and bad.

Some, like myself enjoy doing the sticks and what I guess would be a sport for it is not for killing. But those who train in the arts want it to be with swords and daggers and knives. I on the other hand would rather play with the sticks. But when you go to the seminar's, you get what they want to impress you with.

So are we going to say it was Floro who brought all this Kali about? Maybe it is the old art and he learned it from the Princess? The story has been muddied because some say it came from "Dizon" also, and his legend of the cave and the lagoon.

So if Floro, made it up does that mean Guro Ben Largusa is wrong? All the other lineages are incorrect and the art only started when the Spaniards showed up, the Filipinos had no art and no way to defend themselves and because of the many different languages they spoke and had many terms?

As far as the way we refer to the Islands it is either the Philippines or the Filipines, either way it is from the name the Spanish gave it. I have heard it referred to as other names prior to the colonialization of the Islands. I would think they would like to be known by that name if they had one. (simililar to the Okinawans wanting their old name but the Japanese and most refer to it as Japan for it has been ruled by the Japanese since the early 1600's) The Spanish came long before that and named the islands the Philippines, so I guess the "Filipines" is a mutual term, the same as Escrima of Eskrima?

But I can see that would be very hard since there are so many islands and so many various arts and the arts did come from different clans, that is not disrespectful, it is the way it was and is.

I have many books and they say that over and over. So to claim I am being disrespectful is only wrong. All of the clans get together and may want to have a contest, but because one wins it does not convince others to change for that is disrespectul in its self to their ancestors. They may bring in something to supplement but they will always show you their Family art. At least that is what I have noticed.

It is not the art, it is the Man and his abilities and the rest is fluff. I don't care if it is the 1st strike over the top or the 12th they are all the same, different numbers but when practising like I do now I am doing it from a spontainious situation and not from a lesson plan. When spelling a word I dont go back and try to figure if the letter "d comes before e or after c", I just use the letter to spell the word.

Same with a strike or a parry or a stab. Just need to be done, and done quick with the correct foot work to help in the overall execution. Many claim the close part of the art others like to the say the middle and others claim the longer away is better. It is all relative and what you have in your hand or hands, at the time. One stick one dagger, or a sword and dagger, or a shield and a sword, or the scabbard and the sword. Or just one weapon and the empty hand.

I am looking at the Plaque I have that shows about 20 different weapons used by the peoples of the islands all are similar but all are different. Pretty much how the islands were and are today. They call it the 'MoroLand'.
Big problem is the religions of the land and it is very important in this day and age it seems.

I like the name "Kali" for I believe it is older than the Spanish colonizing the island peoples, and they only colonized some not all. Not all were subjegated to them. Similar to WW2. That is good for liberty is the best thing going, in my opinion.

As long as we can keep a good discourse going, I am game other wise no.

I will read the sites later, Thanks.

Regars, Gary

 

That is the problem though isn't it Gary, you cannot keepo good discourse, not only do you insult the old Masters by calling the clanish and narrow minded which in it's self insults the FMA as a whole, but when someone shows you evidence that may contradict what you beleive to be the truth, you resort to petty insults and veiled threat's. Not a wise move.

Do not assume because weapons in the UK are illegal, we don't use them, our favoured weapon is the knife, more and more so. And guess what we shoot people too.

You can show no evidenceor fact for your argument so instead of looking at other peoples evidence and discussing them ina civilised manner you resort to petty insults of, lets ne honest about this, a subject you actually know very little about.

You have read some books, been to a few seminars and you have come to the conclusion that it must for some obscure reason boil down to the fact tat China may have discovered the world, If not it must be by way of Africa, On no India, Oop's sorry Arabia.

The coment you made about the late great GM Presas just about sumed you up, see for if you really knew him you would know that his art is based on blade and not stick.

You yourself have just said "Some, like myself enjoy doing the sticks and what I guess would be a sport for it is not for killing" say's it all, so you are by your own conclusion a sports man. The rest of us use the stick as a safe way of training the blade, but we also realise that the stick also has it's own unique abilities and killing methods.

On many occasions you have even said yourself regarding the term Kali YOU DONT KNOW.

You are plain and simply a TROLL and have no real idea what you are talking about becuase you change your mind about were Kali came from more times than I change my underwear and still you show us no evidence or facts except that the Negritos eat people (which they dont) and that China must have discovered the word (which ash nothing to do with it anyway.

Stop Trolling and do some research and if you trained in the FMA as much as you chnge your mind about something, who knows you may well find out more aboutn the people and the art that you obviously know nothing about.

I will not even entertain you anyfurther on this subject as I have far far better things to do with my time that waiste it on a bigoted narrow minded Troll who does not even have the decency to spell the PHILIPPINES correctly. My spelling is not wonderfull but at least those who do FMA know how to spell FMA.

But remember this:

We can all see plainly see now, your number 3.

Get a life

Pat

 

"When looking at the proper quote I see the term Kalis at the end. Are you translating that to mean sword or the specific sword we have been mentioning?"

Well Gary use some common sense, do you think Tatang meant that people could only take his reputation with a specific sword ?....no unlikely; I think it's fairly obvious he meant any blade.


"Some, like myself enjoy doing the sticks and what I guess would be a sport for it is not for killing. But those who train in the arts want it to be with swords and daggers and knives. I on the other hand would rather play with the sticks"

You try taking 3 kamagong strikes to the back of the head ....but I won't be joining you in your endeavour

"So are we going to say it was Floro who brought all this Kali about? Maybe it is the old art and he learned it from the Princess? The story has been muddied because some say it came from "Dizon" also, and his legend of the cave and the lagoon."

No your getting confused again, we know that 'kali' was mentioned in Placido Yambao's book written in the 50s. What Tatang was referring to was the story of floro being taught by a blind princess.

"So if Floro, made it up does that mean Guro Ben Largusa is wrong?"

That's not for me to say, as far as the stories go it is up to you decide who's opinion you think more valid. Here's a little story for you Gary - during the 50s Tatang was called to Hawaii to fight a challenge match against an Escrimador with a good reputation. On arrival to the venue Tatang found his opponent to be none other than his nephew Floro, the story goes that they both started to laugh and greet each other to the bewilderment of the spectators suffice to say there was lots of drinking and catching up and not any fighting

"All the other lineages are incorrect and the art only started when the Spaniards showed up, the Filipinos had no art and no way to defend themselves and because of the many different languages they spoke and had many terms?"

Woh steady there partner those are some quite random leaps in thought and in the discussion, I see no relevance to the information I provided. But if I must respond No I think you are incorrect of course there was combat systems in PI prior to the spaniards; though I think it highly unlikely that before the spaniards got there, there was 1 mother art being practiced by all clans in the archipelago: Instead I think it would have been the same as now, many variants on the same theme. I think the spanish would have influenced the filipino, and in turn the flipino the spanish...influence is a two-way street.

 

Pat if the Chinese, discovered the World it would be all those places you mentioned and you are correct. I didn't know Remy. But I have read several of the books I mentioned. I believe the Gov't wants to make it the stick, not the blade.

I have a book in front of me about Modern Arnis and it is by Remy Presas, the book is about stick fighting. And the last few pages are about disarming a person with a sword with empty hands. I figure he is and was what he mentioned, I also read he was a spokes person for the Gov't of the Filipines, I am glad you have chosen not to coverse with me. Thank you.

No I am not a troll, I just don't agree with you. If that is what you think then you are truly mistaken. Gary

oosh
I still feel that if there is a sword and it is called Kalis that is the sword they are talking about. I mean when they have 20 different swords on a board and call them by certain names I figure if it is any sword it must have a name for it also. Or not. I don't see what using common sense has to do with it. If I was going to use a term like rifle (longer range) I don't think I would show up with a hand gun to fight.

If you looked at it like that it would be obvious the named items by the Spainard would not be what the filipine people would want the art to be called. At least not in my humble opinion.

But I am not from that area. But figuring the Moros were the tough warriors in the war against the US I figure that they still are.

The history section, in the book that was written by Remy explains much of what I have said. So I still believe the term Kali has not been explained well enough, by many or most but I am willing to still believe it is older then the others.

If the Gov't wants it to be Arnis that is fine but the history books will show that to be the wrong thought, and the people who fought to overthrow the spanish would be thinking that all they did was in vain. The history portion mentions "Kali" and the difference's.

Now that the islands are not owned by another power the people have the right to chose, it should be put to a vote by the people not some federation. The people should make the choice.

My thoughts.

Regards, Gary

 

Pat, to be fair to Gary I'd still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Gary, you said "It is not the art, it is the Man and his abilities and the rest is fluff". I agree with you there. I do also see in your posts how you admire our pre-hispanic culture. In that respect, I'm glad that there are more and more people getting interested in Filipino culture.

In our practice of FMA, we see how our Filipino culture is a rather open one, not afraid to adapt to the changing world, respectful of our elders, but also not stubborn enough to cling blindly to rigid tradition. That's also why in the old school of doing things, we generally do not care for lineage, terminologies, uniforms, or structure.

(However, we also see that this quality of FMA does also lead to a lot of chaos when taken out of context and kept unchecked.)

We are also quite a happy, fun-loving and hospitable bunch of people (just look at our noon time shows ), that's why until recently, we generally kept our blades from view. It's only recently, when it became uso (in fashion) that more and more clubs openly teach the bladed applications of the movements.

Also, the Spanish colonization is a fact. As much as we want, we cannot erase that from our memory. As my Filipino literature professor once said, "alangan namang bumalik tayo sa pag-suot ng bahag, 'diba?" (doubtful that we'd go back to wearing g-strings, right?).

So in the vast and seemingly daunting blur of lineages, legends, terms and titles, we should not get lost. He or she knows what is important.

I now step down from the podium.

Though Gary, I can clearly see why Pat and Lucy are offended. Comments like these are pretty sure ways of getting on people's nerves:

 

Hi Pat,try to find this site www.surigaoislands.com or e-mail editors@ibon.org some Manobos today speak visayan and english other also se4rve in the goverment but still sty in their ancestral lands.If you wish when you go back in PI it is just near in Cebu fly to Surigao city and as as the locals their to find where is Cantillan ,mostly MANOBOS inhabited there .They are good blacksmiths they called thier swords lambitan also thier is a lot of researh of them they are very nice person.When i am in PI i also meet some natives in the mountain province in Luzon.MARADJAO KARADJAO

 

I was quite willing to give him the benefot of the doubt, but when he starts to say that the old Manong's a narrow minded and clanish and trying to give the impression they are ignorant, then to tell me that were I am going is not safe, bearing in mind I have been travelling there for nearly 20 years, cover this with a veiled threat, totally ignore what everyone else is saying, cant make his mind up if it is Chinese, African, Arabian or something else, makes unfounded statements such as the Negrito's eat people.

The I start doubting his motives.

I am, open to all points of veiw, but when someone gets agressive when I put my opinion and some historical facts across then I raise my hackles up.

I am no expert, after nearly 30 years studying FMA in one shape or form I can honestly say I am still learning and I always learn something new everytime I go back to the PI, that is the wonderful thing about FMA.

A bit of politness in this world goes a long way.

YBIFMA

Pat

PS Kalislash, thanks for the contacts, I will do my best to check it out when I am in Cebu this December.

YBIFMA

Pat

 

I agree. Neither term has any more validity than the other.

I've read most of the pages on this thread and we seem to be going in circles. I believe Pat's quote says it all.

Why go on any further with this discussion?

-Rich Acosta

 

Reynaldo S. Galang Book Classic Arnis

The book mentioned in the title is about the legacy of Placido Yambao.

On page 18 of the same book Reynaldo goes on to say that Placido is from the province "Pampanga". Prior to the name of Arnis the art was known by the name "Kali" taken from the sword by the same name, (which ment sword).
It was the Dialict or language of the Capamapangan. He goes on to say the word Kalis is not exclusively Capamapangan but is used by other dialicts in the area and the same meaning is there regarding the sword and the name Kalis, which is where Kali derived.

So as far as I am concerned the earlier thoughts I had mentioned still stand about the sword of Arabia and the sword of the Filipines "Kalis" and the name "Kali" came from the sword and is much older then the term Arnis.

The wording I have chosen is a paraphrase, of the article and there is more regarding the topic in footnotes by "Buenaventura Mirafuentes", regarding the subject, which confirms again my thoughts mentioned in my past posts.

The art of "Sinawali" came from this region and the fierce warriors "Macabebes".

Mentioning this, it puts the topic to rest in my mind. The book is fairly new and is a good one. The copy I have is 2004 edition. I don't know about the original in 1992 but the 2004 edition, there are several introductions by numerous well known people of the art.

I figure the Book has put the topic to rest as I mentioned above. Figuring the Gov't wants to incorporate the arts of "Arnis and Escrima to be combined with Kali", to be the sport is fine with me.

"Kali" is older and that is what we were discussing. Guro Dan Inosanto, has kept to this thinking and I see why, for it is the truth.

Regards, Gary

 

"...for it is the truth..."

Just because one person says that something is true, doesn't necessarily mean that it is. Baaa-a-a-a-a!!! (Note: I got nothing against Dan Inosanto... he definitely knows more than I do. But I've got something 'against' sheep. Baaa-a-a-a!... ehhe)

This may be True for Guro Dan Inosanto... and for you. But this doesn't mean that this is THE (Absolute) Truth. (It's like Religion hehe)

And nobody else (not even those who think Guro Dan Inosanto is a god and Knows THE Truth) has laid down any proof so far.

..."Kali" is older.... and I see why...

Can you please enlighten us how/why you SEE "Kali" to be older? We really don't see this and it would be great if you can share your knowledge with us. (Apart from telling us "just because Dan Inosanto believes so". Baa-a-a-a!!!)

So let us just say that it is true... that "Kali is the Mother Art"... are you saying that this is


--- You have also mentioned the Kapampangans...

OFF TOPIC: Btw, before I go any further... Sorry, I'm really fussy about spelling n sh_t. Please take this as an education, not as a bashing. The province is called Pampanga [pam-PANG-ga]... and the people/dialect is called Kapampangan (C & K are interchangeable but K is more common for the term Kapampangan [kah-pam-PANG-an]).

Now... "Filipines"... nobody spells like this. You have these options instead: Philippines. Pilipinas. Filipinas. Phils. PI. Pinas. These are the terms/slangs/shortcuts we use for Philippines. (Btw some books spell it as Philipino or Philippino... thats rubbish... nobody else spells like that)

And now.. back to topic...

So you reckon that "Kali" is Kapampangan for "sword"? Is this limited to "sword" or does it also apply to any blades and daggers? (I'll also ask my ex-bf for some input in this, he's from Tarlac).

And so what is it really? Is it Arabic or Kapampangan? I'm a bit confused. Sorry.

 

Dhay,

Thanks for the spelling lesson. Now you should do that for others also.

As far as a type o or the misspelling, I took it from the Book I mentioned, so if I made an error or type o you still get the idea.

Kabaroan can be spelled with a "C or a K" I Have seen it both ways similar to Eskrima or Escrima.

I like The spelling of the "Filipine's" and I like the spelling of Abcde-----for the way of thinking about the alphabet of strikes.

You are giving a good version and I am contributing also, so as long as we do it with good discourse it will be fine.

We need people with varied opinions and thoughts for that is how we get to the essence of the discussion which in my opinion, if the book I mentioned is read, it is a no "brainer"...

To have the Spanish word of "Arnes" changed to "Arnis" and used it fine. Eskrima or Escrima which came from "Skirmish" in Espanol. But "Kali" was and is the first word.
I like that one "Kali" to differentiate from the others.

When I think of Eskrima I think of Cabales, and Eskrido I think of Canete, Arnis etc. and so forth, I explained it before. I study many styles and systems with reading and Practicing. If I fail to be studing one more then the other I see that as a benefit, for that does not narrow your ability to recognize they are all worthy.

I see many similarities with all of them and that is good, for the same is with Chicken same ingredient, just different seasoning.

If the Gov't wish's the word to be "Arnis" that is fine, since I don't live in the Islands I'll continue to think more like I do in the USofA, I believe if it was not for this location (America) it would not be as Democratici in other areas.

Thanks again, for the spelling lesson and your opinion's.

Regards, Gary

 

Escrima is Cabales... Escrido is Canete... Arnis is Presas... Kabaroan is Estalila... Pananandata is Marinas... Kali is Largusa. Ok?

 

So Kali came from the sword Kalis they only forgot the letter s kapangpangan ,some in Tarlac they also speak ilocano and tagalog.Mostly Ilocanos has the word kali can be found from their languge which mean a hawk ag-kali is to dig a hole and tagalogs may say magbungkal and to scrape is kalkal or kalkalin.And the famous saying of the kapangpangan is SUBOK PAMO PARA MABALO MEANS IF YOU WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING YOU MUST TRY IT FIRST.

 

My advanced apologies if most of my comments below are off topic.

Sorry. That was directed to everyone who wants the correct spelling/terms. It just so happened that you're the last person who posted just before I "snapped". lol...

You mean you got "Filipine" from that book? Gawd. Is it the "Modern Arnis: The Filipino Art of Stick Fighting by Remy Presas"? I should get a copy. I'm curious. hehe. (note: much respect to GM Remy Presas!)

I did mention that either can be used but that "K" is more common, especially in Tagalog. In the original Philippine alphabet, there is no "C". "C" was incorporated when the Spaniards arrived. And the Spanish language barely has "K"s. The Filipino alphabet (called Abakada - there's a reason why its called A-BA-KA-DA... this reflects in the ancient script, Baybayin, too) consists of 20 letters only (while the English one has 26).... They're a b k d e g h i l m n ng o p r s t u w y.... no C, F, J, Q, V, Z or ñ ([EN-yeh]). These latter alphabets where only added during the Spanish era. If you look at classic Filipino literature (try writers Francisco Balagtas or Jose Rizal), you'll barely see these extra 6 characters.

In Modern Tagalog on the other hand, much of the Classic Tagalog is still being used, with lots of incorporated Spanish terms. eg. Baso (Sp. Vaso, En. glass) or Abaniko (Sp. Abanico, En. fan) or Lastiko (Sp. Elastico, En. rubber/elastic band). There are actual Filipino terms for these, but some have been forgotten because of laziness... coz Spanish and English terms are shorter or easier to remember (they're "converted" into Filipino.. eg. school (en.) --> eskwelahan (from spanish "escuela") --> paaralan (tag.)). I am guilty of this sometimes. But do you see the difference?

Of course you can still use the "Spaniardized" spellings... I personally like sticking to classic Tagalog/Filipino as much as I can. (If you're Chabacano then you have a good excuse for "Spaniardizing" everything.. hehe)

Anyway... if you have any questions on Filipino spelling, grammar or literature... let me know. I used to be very good at this back in school days (had about 16 yrs of this BS... lol)

I don't care what you like. You can like whatever you want. But expect me to spring at ya whenever you (or anyone) writes like this. The Phils has been bastardized enough, and I love the country too much to have any more people bastardizing what is generally traditional and standard.

Now I can let u go for the Filipine error (remember the country was named after a Philip! not a Filip! FLIP! hehe). But Filipine's? Now that's a double whammy! Wrong spelling + wrong grammar (punctuation-wise). I'm sure you don't need me to explain. (See how frisky you're making me! lol)

I told you. I'm not after burning anyone. I just want to 'educate' others with the proper way of speaking/writing in the Filipino language. I'm not giving you a "good version", but I'm giving you THE Standards. I didn't study (and an honor student) in one of the best Universities back home for 16 yrs for nothing. Thank you for your effort/contribution - it is much appreciated - but sometimes we (take note, "WE"! that includes me!) make mistakes and sometimes we have to listen to others (i'm very stubborn myself, but in the end, i find out that my 'teachers' are always right... i just learn it the hard way)... peace!

I think the book will be very educational for me. I'm definitely grabbing a copy of it as soon as I can. In discourse, various opinions and thoughts are good. But in research, such as what this thread is about, personal opinions and thoughts are hindrances to FACTUAL research. This kind of discussion needs logic, proof and argumentation. (note: argumentation isn't necessarily 'bad' or 'aggressive')

You have given the sources/meanings for both "Arnis" and "Eskrima"... but you haven't for the term "Kali". Do you like this term just because you can't trace it's etymology?

(btw, as with the "e" and "i" interchange... Filipinos commonly interchange this a lot - its just the "hard/dense" tongue lol - like... V is pronounced as B, B is pronounced as V - these aren't deliberate, they just naturally slip! lol - Fs as Ps and Ps as Fs (Fresent Ferpect lol). But there is a standard of what should be correct - it's no different from the English language... there ARE standards and rules in spelling, grammar, usage/context. The Phils might be a 3rd world country, but we're not stupid.)

Similarities, yes. Differences, also yes.
Reiterating Pat's comment... Eskrima is Arnis is Kali. These are chicken. Silat, on the other hand for example, still similar, but at the same time different. It's beef. I'm not going further on this as Pat's already explained this.

Actually, the "National Sport" is Sipa! (or Takyan). *hunts for translation on google*... *5 mins after...*.... its similar to american "footbag" and we use a puck similar to a badminton shuttlecock. It's made of a coinshaped-metal base + feathers stuck in the middle of the metal coin. Anyway... as far as I know, it's Sipa (tagalog)/Takyan (visayan). If it has been changed to Arnis, I would have never heard about it. Someone better tell me when this was announced. hehehe

And, yes, NAMES for things mean nothing. Words are mere vessels for communicating and understanding. It's what IS that's more important. But some people think they (me) need to understand the NAME in order to understand the THING... and sometimes that helps a lot. And the people in this thread want to research the term KALI to understand better what it IS. (For more details on what I meant by Words/Names being Nothing but mere vessels... Taoism gives a clear explanation for this. Google it!)

You grew up in America. Fine. I grew up in the Philippines. And "Democracy" has got nothing to do with the discussion on the term "KALI". And America didn't really take over the Philippines just to "SAVE" it from the Japanese anyway. I can give you an explanation why they (and Japan) chose the Phils but that'll be for another thread. (You can PM me if you wish and I will tell you about it.)

Anytime!

Yes. Okay. But not limited to. Escrima is Escrido is Arnis is Kabaroan is Pananandata is Kali is FMA. Or actually... maybe its the other way around? Cabales is Escrima. Cañete is Escrido. Presas is Arnis, etc etc? IMO.

 

Thats funny. I never knew that Kapampangan and Visayan/Tagalog were that close. (I thought it was a totally alien language lol)

Subok = try/test (also subok in tagalog)
Pamo = well... mo... you...
Mabalo = know.... hibalo (visayan), hibal-an (ilonggo)... well... alam (tagalog) hehe...

i doubt they forgot the S in Kalis though.....

There's also KALISKIS (scales as in fish/lizard/etc scales)... maybe they forgot SKIS?

 

dhay,
Philippines it is then. So if we do that is the understanding that it was named after Philp? I was under the impression his name was Phillip. Now are there many pines at this location?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines

Regards, Gary

 

Baguio is a city of pines.