The meaning of kali

Maybe the've eaten all the Kali Warriors

YBIFMA

Pat

 

Now I am really worried about the food they offered me

 

Now let's take a look at some of the words that were translated back in 1521 by Magellans crew.

First we see some translations of various weapons, I am sure it was obviously something that interested the crew as they were required to use them.

Look at the Word Cutlass, this tells us 2 things, 1. That this was the favoured weapon of the Spanish Sailors, Not the Rapier and 2. When Pigafetta recorded the Battle of Mactan he mentioned a Cutlass that was similar to a Simitar but bigger. The Kampilan was originally a 2 handed sword so this shows that there was a good chance of Lapu Lapu using what we know know as a Kampilan or Large Cutlass type weapon.

Now let's look at the last word Hog/Pig, now if Humbon as we are led to beleive was Muslim why would we even need this word translated, Humabon and his villagers would not have hog's in their village as there was no need for them as there only purpose would be to eat them. Now we all know that Muslims do not eat pork. So why did Pigafetta feel the need to translate this word if there were no Hog's in Cebu (Zubu / Sugbu)?

Some say that Lapu Lapu may well have been Muslim and the fact that he used a Simitar type weapon may be some evidence to back up this claim and maybe the word Kampilan at the time was just a generic term in Cebuano for Sword, much the same as Kalis in some regions (but not all and certainly not Cebuano) is a term meaning balde longer than a knife, e.g. Sword.

But to assume that Raja Humbon was also Muslim may not be accurate as it is obvious from Pgafetta's translations of their word that Hog's/Pig's were available to them for trade.

This shows that yes, there may have been some Muslim presence in the Visayan region by the fact Pigafetta mentions a Simitar type weapon during the battle of Mactan, but it is more than likely that in Cebu it's self there was a more Animistic presence by the very presence of Hog's?Pig's, they may not have been Hindu as Hindu's by nature are vegitarians.

Pigafetta also translate a word saying "Their God" in OLd Cebuano this is "Abba" in Modern Cebuano this is "Bathala". Now was Pigafetta giving us a literal translation or was he refering to the name that the Cebuano's gave to their God, if the latter is so, this would be more evidence to show that Raja Humabon and his people at least were of Animistic in the religious beleifs and further quells the theory that Kali the Mother Art is of Muslim origin.

You will notice that the only word that comes anywhere near the term Kali is Calix meaning dagger, maybe some would say that this is evidence that Kali was present in Cebu at this time, but if this was so then why would they not refer to the term when putting on celebratory displays of the fighting skills for Magellan and his men, and if it was mentioned surely Pigaffeta would have had the term translated.

Now let's look at the word Hand, in Old Cebuano it is Camat, it is only Kamot in Modern Cebuano, so to say that Kali comes from the 2 words Kamot and Lihok (Both modern Cebuano words) also tells us that Kali may infact be a modern terminology to describe the FMA and not the Mother Art and the oldest term as some have made claim to.

Just some other facts to ponder on.

Best regards

Pat

 

Now let's look at Kalis,

Some do say that the word Kali comes from the Sword Kalis, now this is a more plausable explenation of how the term Kali came to be, for when asking someone who was performing a series of movements you have not seen before you may well be met with the answer. "AH! I am doing Kalis /Kali".

Now let's say we accept this, as it is very plausable and makes a lot more sense, we have to look at the Kalis, like many things in the FMA like the launguage, they are regional.

We now know that the Kris is a blade predominantly found in the Southern Philippines, e.g. Mindanao and Sulu. We also know that from Pigafettas translations that in Cebu at least a sword was refered to as a Kampilan. The Kalis too is a regional blade.

Now this shows that yes there may well be a region that refered to their skills as Sword, e.g. Kalis, but it only proves that the term Kali may only be unique to the region or area that favoured the use if the Kalis and does not way show evidence that the art was to refered to as Kali over the whole region, all 7000+ islands.

Some researchers have in recent times spoken to some of the old Grandfathers and Grandmothers who were known to be great afficianados of the FMA right across the region and have found one common demoninator, that they did not use the term Kali and beleive it or not many did not even use the terms Arnis or Eskrima but refered to their art simply as "Fighting".

The modern day public when looking at any martial arts expects and beleives there to be some mysterious force at work and will quickly latch on to mystical reasons, history, stories, myths and ledgends and take them to be the truth, and I think this is were the confusion of terminologies has come about. Some felt the need to pander to the public desire for mystery, myth and ledgend and why not, after all it has helped in raising the profile of what we all agree is a great if not the best (in our opinions) martial art out there.

The real truth of the matter is that most of the old practitioners who have now long gone, more than likely refered to the FMA as simply just "Fighting".

There is no proof showing that Kali is the Mother Art, there is no proof to say it is the original name, how can it be there are after all 111 different launguages/dialect spoken in the Philippines which will tell us we can find at least 100 differnt names for the art.

The true fact is this, we accept that Kali is a term used to describe the FMA in the same way both Arnis and Eskrima also describe the FMA, no one term has superiority or presidence over the other and all three terms should be respected as being of equal standing in the art as a whole.

If some choose to call their style Kali then that is great,but they should not look down upon those who chose to use another name e.g. Arnis or Eskrima saying that they are older, more superior and more ancient.

The base of all these names are still the same, they are all FMA. What they teach is the same, it is only the name that is different and we have to remember a name does not make you better, just because you have what many would consider a cooler or mystical name, it is at the end of the day, Just a name.

In 2000 years time we may well call it something completely different, but at the end of the day it is still FMA.

Best regards

Pat

 

Hi, Pat most of what you are mentioning are from books that have to do with opinions from those who write from those who wrote before. I don't believe there is a lot of independent seeking. Just writing a book by braile.

I have been reading a couple of books about the Chinese and how powerful they have been for thousands of years. They have ruled the seas for such a long time. They were traveling to Arabia, Arabia had relations with Damascus long before Gengis Khan fought on land. The Chinese had an influence on many locations and one of them was the Phillipines.

For it was the Chinese who delivered the ability to make swords from steel that came from Syria via the Persians. Since the Chinese were dealing with these peoples long before Gengis Khan, it makes sense they are the tie in.

The Muslim religion (in the Filipines) was around long before you are mentioning. This one book is from a person who wrote for National Georgraphic for 10 years and it is full of myth busters.

So...Because the Persian sword and the Kalis sword has such a close name to the term Kali, it is the closest that I have found, it just might be the key.

You have to think outside of the box on this one I am thinking. I believe the answer is not to talk to the ignorant but to read the books that are around that have lots of research and a broad base, not the narrowness of villagers.

They are a very pleasent people until you start asking to many pointed questions I have found. It has a tendency to cause strife if questioned and then when they answer you ask how do you know that? Because my father said that, and his father. Pretty clanish.

Many persons don't know where the term America came from, they say why is it America if Columbus discovered it LOL... Because, Oh...

Why is it the West Indies, if India is far away? Because the Chinese ruled the seas and placed these peoples all over the earth for centuries and they remained distinct to the culture they came from.

It was truly a feat beyond comprehension, until you research it with vigor. One place to start is go to the web site 1421.tv and it will start you on the path.

Regards,
Gary

 

The other reason I discount the Muslim theory is this:

Imagine on the return to Spain the surviving sailors of Magellans crew would inform their Catholic King who in return would tell the Pope that they have infact converted a Muslim tribe to Catholosism. Do you not think the King of Spain and the Pope would keep this quiet.

Put it this way Magellan would not just be known for circumnavigating the world, even though he only made it as far as the Philippines. He would also have been celebrated as being the convertor of the heathen, the subjigator of the hated Muslim. Think about it, what an acheivement for the Catholic Church, to actually convert the biggest rival, this message would have been sent all around the Catholic and Muslim worl,and with that a vast Armada would have been dispatched on a holy war to beat their enemy on yet another front.

Best regards

Pat

 

BGile, most of what I am quote are from Encyclopedias that base their information on archiological findings and historical records, written independantly out side the FMA circle of as you say ignorant petty clanish narrowness of the villagers, some of whom by the way are top Lawyers, Business men, and even politicians, holders of the legacy of the FMA, in effect the very people who gave the world Kali Arnis Eskrima. not the sort of people I would consider Naroow Minded.

With regards to the discovery of the Americas, well long before the Chinese supposedly got there, guess what, The Viking's got there before them and if you look at it in more detaai the Proto/Malays (American Indians) where there first.

Thay have even found anciet Celtic Burial ground in China and Ancient Celtic Burial ground in Scandinavia where the body was wearing Chinese silks, does that mean the Celts discovered China?

But that has nothing to do with the origin of the term Kali and I think your just clutching at straws hoping you can find some obscure place out side the Philippines that will show you that the term Kali is the Mother Art. Try looking outside 'Sticktown, Kalifornia'

Sorry but you will have to do better than that.

Best regards

Pat

 

First you say.

Then you say.

So by reading books with archiological and historical referance and encyclopedias that are out side of the FMA box I must be reading the wrong books. But at the same time you ask me to read books that have lots of reseach on a braod base. Arn't these broad based books that have a lot of research called historical referances and encyclopedias?

You seem to have a bit of trouble making up your mind on this one and a little confused, I really think you need to research the FMA outside the box you are in, take a look at other systems that are not related to the group you train in, you never know you may find some answers you never expected.

Best regards

Pat

 

O.K your 30 days are up as of midnight yesturday.

As from today I expect everyone to refer to 'Lucy Arnis' as the 'Mother Art'.

This cannot be argued as 30 days were allowed for any disputes, so should have been brought forward during this period. Should anyone else use the term they will need a good lawyer and/or we can agree some terms for royalties to be paid to me on each occassion the term is used under international copyright laws for public performance/print etc.

All hail me for I am the 'Mother Art' and that is official. :woo:

Love Lucy :love:

 

All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art, All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art,All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art,All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art,All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art,All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art,All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art,All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art,All hail Lucy Arnis for she is the Mother Art, :woo:

 

:woo:

*bows down to Lucy*.... HAIL LUCY!!! *bow*... HAIL THE MOTHER ART, LUCY ARNIS! *bow*

Now... everytime someone mentions Religion, I get a "bit" fussy about it... so... just a "few" comments... (I'm a sucker for Religion... lol) :Angel:

First of all... not even an entire lifetime is enough to find out what the Absolute Truth is. And have you had a look at other authors/lectures/resources at all? And let's say this National Geographic guy is 100% spot on (yeh... right)... which particular "myth" did he bust concerning the timeframe of Islam's arrival in the Phils?

Now...

The Muslim religion didn't reach the Philippine Isles till the 14h Century when Arab/Malay Muslim traders arrived to trade and and converted the natives in the Southern Philippines.

(eg. see Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Philippines - "In 1380, Karim ul' Makhdum, the first Islamic missionary to reach the Sulu Archipelago, brought Islam to what is now the Philippines.")

Hinduism on the other hand, arrived in the Philippines as early as the 4th-10th Century through Srivajayan empire.

(eg. see Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_the_Philippines - "Historians speculate that the Philippines was under the Sri Vijaya Empire from the 4th to the 10th centuries. ")

Now Catholicism... oh boy. That one's more recent. It was non-existent til the 1500s during the Spanish rule.

Now... Animism, on the other hand, may seem to be similar to the Chinese traditional interwoven Daoism (Taoism) and Confucianism. They all revere Nature and Ancestors.

Animism didn't stop with Bathala. Bathala is mainly associated to the Sun (also the rest of the Sky). Other civilizations have at some point looked at their Sun gods (eg. Egyptian, Jewish, Greek, Roman, etc) as the Absolute Supreme god. There are also other god/desses, deities and elementals... all of which are mostly associated to Nature (including animals)... including the basic elements Fire, Water, Earth and Air (again, very similar to Taoism).... for an idea on Philippine Mythology, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_mythology

If you have looked at that Wiki site on Phil Myths... you will notice that most of the god/desses... have many names... based on the various localities and dialects that exist on the Philippine Islands. So do you not think that the same thing might have happened to the term KALI? All various terms, Arnis, Eskrima and Kali, might have actually popped up at the same time, but were simply called differently based on locality (of dialects).

Personally, even without having proof when exactly the term KALI was coined, this religious-related explanation proves my point of the term Kali simply being a dialect-ual variation. I therefore conclude that the term "Kali" by itself is NOT the so-called "Mother Art". But it is EQUAL to the terms Arnis and Eskrima and FMA and ping pong. *wink*

Oh... and I also conclude that the "Mother Art" is called "Lucy Arnis"

I'm looking forward to Pat's research back in the Philippines. *jealous*... i wanna go home too! :cry:

 

As far as some of the books I have read on the subject they are numerous and like this thread very confusing. If you read 10 they all have a different version, but somewhere in the book there is a common ground.

But the fact tha Escrima and Arnis are both derivitives from the Spanish and Kali is a dirivitive of the earlier sword and sword of kalis I'll still stick with that thought but I will add other information for I am still open for a good thought but I believe it is clear that Kali is older if using just the swords as a guide.

If you believe the Hindus were there earlier then you always have the goddess "Kali" so that would predate it all, would'nt it?

Regards,
Gary

 

NO

 

"But the fact tha Escrima and Arnis are both derivitives from the Spanish and Kali is a dirivitive of the earlier sword and sword of kalis I'll still stick with that thought but I will add other information for I am still open for a good thought but I believe it is clear that Kali is older if using just the swords as a guide"

How you came to that conclusion from the information provided I don't know. Whatever the term, the art is the same, trying to divide up FMA in such a way has little benefit for FMA as a whole.

 

I am thinking I have never seen so many arts from one location and claiming theirs to be the best. I figure that is how they developed and got changed slightly for everyone wants to put a spin on it and say this is ours and I like it better.

One of the reasons the Spanish conquered them so easily they didn't like each other and joined forces with the Spanish to rule over the others, or just wipe them out.

Still going on as I see it. Each group claiming the title of the best. I heard it was one man than another or another, I am sure everyone has been the best at one time or another.
It would be good if it was a sport but it is not. It is a killing art. Pure and simple. One of the reasons I like it.
So many Islands so many arts is the reason. And one of the reasons they are still pretty divided.

I go to many seminars and am not stuck in one thought, I am just mentioning the reason I believe the Name of Kali might be older, but then again it might not. LOLOL

Regards, Gary

 

What exactly are you trying to say? It seems you are insulting the very people who are sharing their art with you.

What gives you the impression that no-one is thinking outside the box? Researching far and wide from many different resources in and outside the FMA as a whole is not looking outside the box? Get a grip. There is more information in this thread than you will read in any FMA book, from history of the FMA and History of their lovely country. Where exactly do you think people are lacking the intelligience to look outside the box.

Stop insulting people.

I suggest you set some time aside in your training to learn about the Philippine culture as you really do not have any yet. Maybe then you will also learn how to ask questions in a polite manner and you will get less strife as you call it.

Are you reading an entirely different thread somewhere, because you keep making up some right old crap. No-body has claimed to be the best and no-one considers there to be one style better than another. I cannot see anyting of this nature in this thread so if you are reading this elsewhere, please state where as it seems rather misleading that you suddenly rant about peoples claims, as if someone on this thread has said it, when they haven't.

This killing art you are on about, that you like so much....have you stopped to consider the people that teach us all may also know this killing art, yet you mock them and insult them about their narrow mindness???????? They are ignorant too???? Good luck after that one.

I do not understand how you have the nerve. Are you sure someone has not taped your box shut?

I am disgusted by the rants that I am reading. I can only suspect that you have not thought your words through before posting.

Why not help the reasearch that others are trying to collate by giving a bibliography of all your resources. ie. Book/Video/Website titles, Author's and page numbers with references. Let the researchers go to the sources direct and begin the process of illimination. Without leads your information is just heresay and abosolutely no use to anyone. Cut the BS and maybe the research can seriously continue.

Lucy

'Lucy Arnis' 'The Mother Art'

 

Lucy, come on. It is a pretty narrow minded world that I have seen in this art.
I have gone to many locations and that is the way they feel. Yes, I believe it, for that is what I have seen. I am not being bigoted I am sharing my thought with you very honestly.

If you are offended I guess you will have to deal with it. I am searching to find how it could be taken that way. If you are for real you have not seen the underbelly of society like I have, I guess. My back ground is one of investigtion and I am thinking you are feeling insecure.

The FMA I go and see and "Do" is about knives and cutting and swords and decapitation. If that is not the art you are talking about then it must be all about sport.

Sorry the word "Martial" and "Sport" are not sharing common ground. My instructor knew Remy and traveled with him he was not about Sport.

Yes, he was an enjoyable man, but also teaching a very brutal art, he was. The art is and was so brutal it has remained hidden for hundreds of years. In Stockton CA it is just now really surfacing and the Filipine gangs are taking it over like wild fire.

Bahala Na is now a gang term so was Doce Pares when it started and still is for the ones who are in the know. The term 12 =3 is the number of stars and strickly for the filipino who knows, it is hidden and gang related.

Sorry if that offends you.

You are an outsider and what I am telling you might hurt your feelings, but remember it well. For if you take it to heart what I am telling you, it is wise, and you should be careful.

Do you think they share this with everyone? No, but I am, with you for you seem to feel the area you are going to is a safe location. It is not.

Edit: The only rants I am witnessing are yours, and Pats. Same school, same mentality.

Regards,
Gary

 

How you can find insecurities in my personality, when I was pointing out you were insulting the Masters and Grand Masters in the PI by saying they are just Clannish and narrow Minded etc. I really do not know?

Alot of your posts are very childish......very much like " I know you are I said you are so what am I then". You constantly turn everything around so when someone points out your lack of understanding, you pretend it is the other way round, You are not quite right in the head, if this offends you I am sorry.

If you consider me to be sport based only, you just stay in that box you have packed so nice and tightly.

I remember the days when I was working on the doors of nightclubs, whenever it kicked off, I asked the parties involved to stop, take their shoes and socks off, wear a pair of red gloves while I put my blue ones on and then said "fight", the winner was decided on how loud the crowd cheered after a one minute bout......I dare not get involved unless it was sport orientated. Thank-you for pointing out my downfalls. Perhaps the gloves were just taking it too far, but I needed to ensure a sporting aspect was held at all times in all areas of my life as that is all I know.

Just because I got good at the sport, does not mean I ignore the art, again very narrow minded of you.

So your 'Instructor' knew Remy.....well I knew Remy personally myself too. I trained with him on several occassions and my husband was very good friends for many many years with him which is why you will see our system is influenced quite heavily by his style.

I seriously hope you are not threatening me by telling me to be careful and the place I am going is not safe.

What makes you think I am an outsider? Please explain, I look forward to hearing your vivid explantion of this one.

Lucy

 

Lucy, it has been fun, but it is now time to say enough of this. For the tact you are taking is not conducive to good discourse.

I hope you both enjoy yourselves on your trip. Mentioning Remy and then you explaining your system and how it is related to his stuff explains much, why you are taking the angle you have chosen.

Remy was chosen by the Government to expose the art that they wanted the world to see, and it is still part of the plan as I see it right now on this thread to have "Arnis" the official sport.

The weapon of choice in the Filipines is not a stick. It is a Barong or a Balasiong, or a Kris. When the duels were decided to be done to see who was worthy it was "Tatang" who said, if you want to duel then it will be with the Kalis, not sticks.(paraphrase) There were no takers (the weapon of choice in America is the gun) since your country is lacking in weapons of choice, I guess it is going to have to go to the Baton.

I feel just with that bit of information it is the Kalis which goes to the older art not the stick of today, they were for training, the real fighters were killers. And not so long ago. They still enjoy the chicken fights (where they get the chicken step). Leo Giron mentions that in a book by his Nephew.

It is good that they have changed some, but it is still a very brutal MA. Not the one they are trying to make the countries, National sport.

As far as my not remaining dedicated to just one thought and offering other information, it is to see how much you know, for I know how much I am aware of about this art. But again I see an insecurity here. You have offered much to explain it, thank you.

Regards, Gary

 

Hmm really think you need to re-read this entire thread Bguile

"When the duels were decided to be done to see who was worthy it was "Tatang" who said, if you want to duel then it will be with the Kalis, not sticks.(paraphrase) There were no takers (the weapon of choice in America is the gun) since your country is lacking in weapons of choice, I guess it is going to have to go to the Baton."

Hmm now your quoting Tatang, but you've got it completely out of context historically. The quote is "kung meron mang may gustong kumuha ng aking reputasyon,kailangan nila ako gamitan ng kalis" - "If anyone wants to take my reputation, they must fight me with a sword" which Tatang said in 1979 in response to the Luneta Grand Masters Tournament; As the event was to be fought with sticks. I don't think you should be quoting Tatang to provide credance for your strenuous links. Also (as I stated earlier) Tatang's Great-Grand father Pablo Ilustrisimo, his Grand father Juan de Dios Ilustrisimo, his father Isidro Ilustrisimo and uncles Melecio and Regino Ilustrisimo referred to their art as Escrima; In fact one of Tatang's sisters still lives in Cebu and refers to it as Escrima. In relation to Floro Villabrille, I made a mistake earlier, Floro was actually Tatang's nephew and here's the quote again for you "He made it up".