The meaning of kali

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by buddafinger, Oct 22, 2006.

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  1. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Dear Lucy i am not so defensive i am giving everybody to smeone who used the term kali in other arts just example like they wrote in their boks about FMA ka as kamot and lihok as movement yhey followed the karate kara empty and te hand which filipino martial artist do not used that terms.Some aegued which come first the egg or the chicken i am a martial artist i do not care wich come first i eat them both.And i am not historian and also those Masters are not myn intention is to keep my art work like they do in the past.IF you study the filipino arts hstory is only their reference for the arts filipino martial arts came from their experience and for how many years for struggle they involved fighting this men so my conclusion is the evolution of the arts and i am proud of using kali to affixed tro our system,try to watch who train in arnis and eskrima they strike defferently .this eskrima and arnis they only the language which they at that day. MABUHAY
     
  2. dhay

    dhay Valued Member

    kalislash... ayaw'g kasuko... kaila ko ila pat ug lucy ug wala man na sila nangita ug away... :p

    You might not seem to care about the historicity (chicken and egg thingie) but some people do. And since you responded to this thread, your input is valuable. There are no 'right' or 'wrong' answers here, because as Lucy said, this isn't a thread for arguments but for research. Just share whatever you know as that might be a significant piece of a bigger puzzle in understanding where the term 'Kali' came from. ;)

    It would really mean a lot to these 'researchers' (I wanna learn this too... I'm just waiting for whatever findings come up hehe), if you could give your background as Pat has requested. In this way, there'd be a better understanding to how your knowledge/input of the term 'Kali' came to be.

    Small details mean a lot in creating the bigger picture. :p

    Again, ayaw'g kasuko... we're all just here to figure out how this term 'kali' came to be. :)

    Btw, where in Europe are you based?

    ayo, ayo...
    :Angel:
     
  3. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Hi Dhay,wala ako masuko sa lahat i am giving them some that they could find some answer to their question what i said it is to nearest meaning to what i believed to the FMA .It is just simple take dictionary translte it to the nearest meaning everything in filipino martial arts thier is always the hidden meaning kundi mababaril ka sa luneta tulad ni Rizal,if you ask where i am here in Europe we are near each other.I am telling them filipino used other terms if we used in our language masyadong garapal you can provoked anybody so find another terms that sounds good.
     
  4. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    Are you categorically saying that kali was intentionally chosen to name a violent method of killing (patayan) another person, sort of euphemism only to make it palatable to the martial arts market?
     
  5. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Try to teach in the martial arts the word patayan and tell if they liked it.
     
  6. dhay

    dhay Valued Member

    We totally understand this and I believe no one has said that your input was wrong. All we asked for is further information about your background (you know, Pat's question), not because we only take information from 'popular' people or groups (we don't), but again, as I have mentioned before, to figure out where you are coming from so we can understand how you came about with your input about the term 'Kali'. It's just to understand you further.

    Good idea but I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. You do know that dictionaries aren't created by GOD, right? That they're written by human beings, who haven't (necessarily) even set foot in South East Asia.

    General knowledge (which is what we actually see on dictionaries and encyclopedias) aren't necessarily ACTUAL Knowledge nor ABSOLUTE Truth. And even if they are, the information we find in these are very dynamic and may change over time. Information on these are also not as detailed as we hope they'd be.

    We are on these forums to be agents of change (aka growth/development/learnings). We're not here to refute any information that doesn't suit our own beliefs/opinions. We wanna learn more than what the dictionary can offer us, and get more into the language, the history, the culture to better understand its source. :)

    Sorry... I didn't quite get this. Are you saying that FMA in the Phils is still "underground"? Hmm... e di sana marami nang nabaril sa Luneta ngayon (translation: then many would have already been shot dead in Luneta)... especially every January at the Sinulog festival in Cebu as they do FMA performances during the parades. And there are multitudes of practicioners all over the country (and world) too. I'm not saying that what you just said is wrong, but can you please elaborate? Can you give examples on these 'hidden meanings'... or how they go about this? I would love to learn about this part of our culture.

    Yes. I know you're in Europe, and everything in Europe is quite near. Where in Europe are you? (I won't hunt you down, I promise. hehehe... it would just be nice to know where you are... who knows, I might go visit you someday... I'd love to learn new tricks from you.... - i'm like a sponge... learn learn learn... ehhe)

    Oh.. and where in the Philippines are you from? I'm from Davao! :)

    The Filipino language is very rich but it isn't necessarily aggressive. There are also words used with subtlety. We have all the words we need to express ourselves in various degrees/superlatives. But why use a term from another language?

    Patayan may seem a scary term, and I think (my opinion) it is very dangerous to practise, as you might as well know, you might end up being patay (dead) after just one training session. hehe

    But in which timeframe was the term Patayan thought to be too provoking and aggressive? Is it today? Or was it way back in the ancient past?

    How do you translate Patayan in English? Isn't it now called Streetfighting? Our instructor always tells us students that we learn to Streetfight, and not just wave sticks, twirl em and look pretty. And we do know that Streetfights include (and are not limited to) whacking, bashing, punching, kicking, groping, twisting, biting, gouging, broken bottles, broken sticks, broken chairs, broken bones, broken (fill in the blank).... don't you think this doesn't scare the s__t out of us students? And yes, he teaches Arnis. And this is what we do.

    Hmm.. maybe we should rename this to... "Pretty Stick Twirling FMA*. Does this sound less aggressive? Will this be more marketable? :)

    But in this modern world, (in which peace-loving hippies have tried for over 40 years to bring peace into this world have changed fck all), we probably have to change the strategy.

    Fair enough... so Patayan may not seem to sound too provoking anymore. So how was it back when they changed the term to "Kali"? And where did this term EXACTLY come from? That's all we want to know.

    I'd love to hear your opinion.

    Lots of love
    indhay
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2006
  7. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Hi Dhay ,It is important to know Philippines,their is no serious work on the subject about the mystical past of fighting system evolved in the filipino fighting arts.But it must be noted thatfighting begins during the primitive age,when men fighting against beast,until man against man and this developed the method of fighting until it became martial arts.The development of filipino fighting arts flourished during the warfare against the variety of opressors that take them to extrme evolution of the FMA.Note that Sri Vidjayan empire sread inthe Philippines archepelago,they broughtthe influence of hind an indian religion and philosophy of combative arts.My opinion Kali derivedfrom religion at that period .I AM NOT HIDDING .first we solved this stuff at the beginning i am also at the time always asking my father about it saying that time our fighting arts are their in our native dances so i observed them and its true all my techniques taken to that dances ,try to watch fandango sailaw,sakuting singkil etc.Have you been in Fort Santiago you will see thre whre they tortured some who opposed them.
     
  8. dhay

    dhay Valued Member

    Hi kalislash!

    There might be not have been serious work on it (yet), but this 'mystical past' does exist, doesn't it? Anting-antings and Orasyons are good examples. There might not be many scholarly studies on these, but they do exist. And this is what we are trying to accomplish in these forums.

    These ancient mystical methods are definitely part of FMA, even if it doesn't seem too obvious to those of us who do FMA in the modern world. Even so, these ancient beliefs still exist. And many FMA practicioners (especially the more experienced and/or elderly), put the mundane AND spiritual art together. It's like one cannot exist effectively without the other. It's some sort of safeguard for whether the attack comes in physically or mystically.

    Anyway... going back to topic... wouldn't it be good to actually research and discuss something which hasn't been looked into before? Wouldn't this be a good way to learn new things... things which we haven' known before? :)

    I had a quick look around Google about this... and yeh, it does make sense. I never knew about this bit of history before. So they were in the Philippines around 7-13BC, but then didn't really stay for long and moved focus to Sumatra/Indo-Malaysia. (The root of the terms dukha (poor) and budhi (conscience) now makes sense hehe). I can't find any information on how the combative arts (particularly kali) were derived from (or even related to) this era though.

    Wow... so we're getting closer and it is a good possibility.

    For now, ignore that the Chinese brought in Buddhism into the Philippines as well, because Chinese Buddhism originated from India and Tibet anyway - which eventually found their way through to Taoism - which started the evolution of the Tao religion.. anyway, back to topic hehe.... Let's separate the Indian and Chinese influences for now as it seems more feasible for the term Kali to come from India.

    Does this mean we have to go through all the Indian definitions for Kali now? We might stumble on one that's close enough to 'stick' or 'fight'. lol... I'll have a look. :) --- or you let us know if you have any more info! Thanks!

    I never really thought these dances to be for mere performance and prettiness, as we see them today. I always thought that they were either re-enactments of events or rituals.... primarily rituals.

    When you look at full performances, you usually get the whole shebang. The chief, the princess, the prince, the pretty ladies and the warriors. The weapons: anything they can get their hands on... sticks, blades, sarongs, bamboo poles and the human body.

    I think this is quite obvious though, especially when you start practising the martial art. This is particularly obvious in the footwork. I'm new to FMA but everytime my instructors teach me some new footwork techniques, I instantly associate them to the dances. (I used to dance a lot before back in school, so very familiar with em... I always get flashbacks from school days everytime I learn/see new FMA footworks lol). And these aren't limited to footworks, even the hand/stick drills are very much similar to the dances.

    Again, I don't really see the big difference between dance and martial arts because they are very much intertwined and in the same culture.

    This isn't limited to Filipino dances, IMO. This applies to any neighboring regions too, including Indonesia, Sumatra, Malaysia, Borneo, etc etc. If you look at their dances, they all seem to be similar. And if you look into various South East Asian martial arts, again... you will see the similarities.

    Anyway... any more info on the term Kali possibly derived from India would be nice. I'm looking into it as well.

    Btw, where are you from? And which system do you do? Who is your teacher, etc etc? Remember, Pat's question? Please. Pakitubag palihug. Salamat!

    luv
    dhay



    ..... (30 mins later)

    Apparently..... Srivijaya was Ancient Malaysia..... not India itself. People were Malaysians but very Hindu (in culture). So we need to go way back to what happened between India and Malaysia/Srivijaya... and then link it to Malaysia/Srivijaya and Philippines... hmm.... So the Srivijayas did have some sort of Hindu influence on the SOUTHERN part of the Philippines... no wonder Mindanaoans have a similar culture to those of Indo-Malaysians. So that might be a good explanation where the term Kali came from. But in what context is the term being used? hmm....

    Gawd... this is gonna be a tough history lesson... especially if we're just after one little word. lol
     
  9. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    Everybody seems to of agreed that Kali (the word) has many literal translations in different dialects and languages and that the PI has many influences from other contries which show up in the language and culture, but when did Kali start to be used as a term for FMA?

    Love Lucy :love:
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2006
  10. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Hi Dhay, magaling kang mag-research we are near to the facts even in european arts have the indus ang arab influences take note about the spaniards themselves. Mga gitanos believed to be descendants of India and their fencing from the old egyptian fighting arts,so ang pinangalingan ay iisa lang dumaan sa ibat -ibang tao kanya -kanyang development.Like we obseved today to this eskrima and arnis who have blackbelt 12 dan at that time di nila ginagamit yon and they do not know how to tie that belt.Because of that native dances naitago nila ang iba di lahat kundi masyadong halata.Well my father is a 2nd WW veterans and his father also a soldier during the american occupation ang lolo ko sa mother is not practicant but his two sons ay marunong and i also studies some eskrimador who is not well -known coz they teach only close to thier family . Take note that they are underground pinag -bawal nila kaya gumawa sila ng ibang paraan why they always affixed the word ka and kali other meaning to dig a hole ,a hawk,to scrape etc. If you were practitioner of FMA matutuklasan mo yan and my father style called estoccada MABUHAY
     
  11. dhay

    dhay Valued Member

    Kalislash... sorry... but could you please post in English next time (or at least put translations) because many people here do not speak Filipino. :)

    I'm gonna translate some of your posts for the sake of non-Filipino speakers.

    trans: "you are good at researching"

    I'm a "history-freak". I love researching about the historicities of things that I'm interested about.
    trans: "We are closer to the facts. Even the European arts have Hindu and Arab influences, and Spanish as well." (did you mean this?)

    We are getting closer to the facts due to research. hehe. But then again, do not believe ALL information that's out there. Not all are factual or exactly true. Skepticism is a very useful tool in doing research.

    trans: "... so their arts come from one source but is practised by various people... hence the differences in practise and development..."

    Sorry. Who are the "gitanos"? Are these the sea gypsies (aka badjao)?

    Why did they think they were of Indian descent? And how is this related (or how did they come across) to the Egyptian fighting arts?

    trans: "...they didn't have belts..."

    trans: "They were able to disguise their martial arts into native dances. They've disguised most, but not all, of it"

    trans: "... my maternal grandfather didn't practise arnis but his two sons did. I also study this eskrima system which isn't very known because it was only taught to close family members..."

    trans:"...the martial art was banned, hence they coined another term for it... so they affixed the word 'ka' and 'kali'..."

    Just wondering... which meanings did "ka" have? And what meanings did "kali" have?

    Aah... Estoccada..... thanks! :)
     
  12. dhay

    dhay Valued Member

    Oh... btw... I have been corresponding with the guy who owns the http://seaarch.wordpress.com website, which is a South East Asian Archeaology News Blog.

    This is what he's said....

    Then I got confused coz I thought the Srivajayans were mainly Hindu.... then he said..

    That's my input for the day. :)
     
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Over the years many have pondered on the idea that maybe the term 'Kali' came via India and the Hindu religion. Now because we have a term e.g. 'Kali' being used both in India and in the FMA, this would in some way make more sence that the other explenations of how the term 'Kali' came about, e.g. Kamot and Lihok (both Cebuano terms by the way and not Southern Musilm as is supposed), the other explenation for the introduction of the term is based around the finding of the copies of the Laws of Kalintaw, problem with this is that they have since been proven to be fake documentation and both version have so far not been able to show any archiological evidence to the use of the term.


    Now going back to the Hindu and Goddess Kali link, we have to first look at the infuence of the religion in the region and although there has been some influence in the Philippine Islands this was soon taken over by Musilm and Christian faiths. Now even so, you would expect some records and or evidence somewhere in the archives to show up the use of the term Kali in relation to the indiginous fighting arts of the Philippines. But so far nothing has been given up and only oral records have had to be relied on by those who are involved in the research. So far many researchers when talking to the old practitioners of the art in the Philippines, no record of the term Kali can be remembers before the mid 20th Centuary.

    Also, if the term 'Kali' has been derived from the Hindu influence, surely there would be some referance to this term being used for one of the Hindu fighting skills in India, There is Kalari but no Kali fighting arts in India. Why is this? Kali is a Goddess in India, not a fighting art.




    So is Kalislash stating that the term Kali was coined after the Spanish banned the practice of the native arts? and if so, this again shows that the term Kali in relation to the FMA may only be as late as the early 1600's and would be one possible reason for there being no record of this term before this period. Now the only real prblem I have with this is the fact that there are still no referances to this term in relation to the FMA from this period. Some record to this term would have had to be placed somewhere even if it were in referance to stopping the local populace from praciticing the art of 'Kali', but nothing even considering that the Spanish kept quite clear records of the interaction with the local populace.



    Without a doubt there would have been some influence on the European arts from both India and Arabia, the European's after all were in constant conflict and occupation in many of those areas and when you have War with another nation there fighting skills will influence your fighting skills, this is much in the same way the Spanish and European fighting skills have influenced the FMA.



    So your fathers style was called Estocada (or Estokada) and not Kali? Interesting, as Estocada is a Spanish word meening 'To Thrust'. I am curious as you gives us the ideas you have as how to the term 'Kali' has been derived but in fact your fathers style is using a Spanish term to refer to his fighting art. Now I am confused.



    In todays FMA, wether a particular group wears belts, adopts a ranking system, unforms or not is not actually relevant to the question of were the Term Kali came from. How each individual groups promotes it's self is up to each individual group. Some will like it, some will not but what people are getting regardless of how it is window dressed it is still FMA. Or are you saying that is a particular group decides to opt for the belt or uniform system that they are no longer teaching FMA? and if so, why.

    But I am also curious as to why you refer to a particular rank as
    as this is a rank used in Japanese MA not FMA. Just curious.




    As we speak more and more individuals are researching this subject and many are finding that even in this area there is a heavy Spanish influence. But the one thing this area has over the term 'Kali' is that there is actually archiological evidence to study and find out in more detail the mysticism and occult arts of the Philippines.

    SO what I am actually saying here is, if you have heard the term 'Kali' being used in the PI before the mid 20th Centuary, could you let's us know were you heard it, who you heard it from and when you heard it, in order that we can tell the other people who are interested in researching this subject that we now have another avenue to check out regarding the term.

    No one is saying the use of the term Kali is wrong, all people are doing is questioning previous explinations as to how the term came about, when it came about and for what reason. Also did everyone in the PI use this term at one stage or was it just one area?

    People by nature are curious beasts and will ask questions and expect resonable answers that can be backed up with fact, no longer can we expect student to just take out word as gospel. In this age of information technologie, it is far easier to get answers to questions and find facts and figures on any subject we chose. We as instructors have to be able to give our students who ask, the correct information and not ask them to just take our word for it, for if we do we are not only decieving the students, we are decieving ourselves.

    Best regards

    Pat


     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2006
  14. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Lets just look at it like some say, and just mention the Kalis sword and drop the "s" makes sense don't you think?

    Then we have the name KALI...
    Yes, it could be that simple. The secrets of Kalis Ilustrisimo, by Diego, T and Ricketts,C (2001), might have something in it. I don't have the book though.

    Gary
     
  15. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Yes it could be as simple as that, but again we have to look at the evidence.

    The style of the late GM Tatang Ilustrisimo (who is from the Visayan region) was first known as 'Olistrisimo' (Olisi is a Cebuano term meaning stick), it later changed to 'Kali Ilustrisimo' in the mid to late 20th Centuary and more recently to 'Kalis Ilustrisimo' to enphasise that fact that they are a blade based system. Why the name change, I am not certain, you would have to ask our Ilustrisimo brothers as they would be more knowledgable regarding this matter.

    All that is being asked as I have said earlier is


    Best regards

    Pat
     
  16. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Back about 30 years or so ago there was a fellow who was part of the Kalis group he spelled it with an E rather than an I, first name Regino. He was in the Stockton area and was well known about the same time as J La Coste. Guro Dan I. was one of his students.

    I was to his house back then, it was in the 80's he lived right off of the freeway on a surface street that was the main road before the Freeway came through. I did not know of his fame until later, I was there for a garage sale and bought a few things very nice man. His nephew was/is Floro V.
     
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Now we are getting somewhere, So this guy kalled it 'Kales - Kale' or was that Kalis Elistrisimo?

    But still we do not seem to be getting behoynd the Mid 20th Centuary and no offence that was a referance in the USA and not the Philippines. We are trying to see if we can find referance to the term Kali in the Philippines from before the mid 20th Centuary. If you have more info it would be appreaciated.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2006
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Now we are getting somewhere, So this guy kalled it 'Kales - Kale' or was that Kalis Elistrisimo,
    _______________________________________________________________

    Yes it was Kalis Elistrisimo, his nephew was Floro V. Now Floro V was the teacher of Ben Largusa who inheirited the art of "Kali". This is what Floro V. called it. So if any one knows Ben, or his son Lindsey that would be where I would go for some more information. GM Ben lives in Las Vegas, the last I heard.

    According to what I have read and learned in the past Kali was a 2 stick art and some will say it is the sword and dagger. Not to be confused with the single stick of other arts.

    I have a copy of Guro Dans first book, that he wrote, it is explained in that book from Guro Bens view point. It was the art of Floro Villabrille, the thought is to train soft, but hard and hard, but soft. I have seen F V name spelled different but in this book it is spelled like I have it.

    Gary
     
  19. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    Hi Pat, you are right saying it also past to to be saying of other people that is true,when i am in elementary ther is a book called pathways to reading late 70 which indicate the name kali a filipino fighting arts they said maybe this could not be found today but i cannot tell you i could back for even 100 years.ESTOCCADA youre right we do lot of thrustng but we also hacking and slashing and that day they where nfluence of the spanish languge that day and now some using the japanese terms today of using dans so they only using that for reference for the rank as for that they used kali to indicate that their filipino fighting arts, now i ask who is the father of GOD i am also eager to know it .MABUHAY
     
  20. oosh

    oosh Valued Member

    As far as I'm aware, Tatang's father and uncles referred to it as escrima.
     
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