The little man in (real) action

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Gray, Oct 3, 2005.

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  1. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    My original post was meant to be "I talked to someone who knew him and this is what he told me" not "I know the truth and you do not". Also, he has no financial interest in either building up or tearing down Lee's myths, most people writing books about it do.

    I also wrote about some of my opinions on the discarding theory and Bruce Lee's talent vs depth of knowledge.... opinions I held before I met this guy.

    The anecdote about meridians etc... I described it as based on just "something I read" and the reason I did that was so that you could undrstand that it is not very substantial evidence.
     
  2. SouL

    SouL Valued Member

    I got the impression from reading your post "I know the truth and you do not" obviously this was not your intention. Just because he has no finacial interest doesnt mean he couldnt be bias. He might just not of liked the guy and didnt thikn he was nothing special not everyone liked him. Im sure thiers other people out their who also have no finacial interest from bruce who would remmber him fondly.

    Your theory mirrors every hardcore WC practictioner and is valid to some extent and i have no problem with it. All i can say was that WC was found out to not being the be all and end all of fighting mainly by gracie jiu jitsu. So in my mind bruce was right to critise it even thouhg he didnt study it fully in depth.

    If it takes 50 years to study one art in depth im sure youll be a great fighter after u become master but what about all those years while your trying to gain depth how you going to defend yourself in the meantime? I think its better to adopt the jkd approach. Obviously being master doesnt guarantee SD but it sure helps lol.

    you decide to study WC kickboxing karate etc... in depth and your 10 years throuhg and you get attacked by a grcaie jiu jitsu guy of 5 years and he takes you to the ground :eek: althouhg im talking in simple terms and not consdiering alot of facotrs id say grcaie guy would win. Seems dumb to me especially when u can follow the jkd approach and give yourself a better a chnace. Im not putting any styles down you can give the example of the grcaie fighter getting kocked out becuase he had no stnad up ;) just wondering what u guys thought on this? i feel that im missing something on this :confused: .

    You used the book thing to back up something you said of bruce about him not knowing any secrets of martial arts. I would class WC as a secret which was only taught to chinese only so techically he did know a secret art. From what i know only one man knows the dim mak strikes properly which is then handed down to another one every ten years. Myth or truth? would like to belive it sounds cool lol

    Just becuase something is written doesnt mean its wrong or highly bias just the same as its not the gospel truth. I prefer to look at all opinions and if they all roughly reach the same conclusion on bruce then its good enouhg for me. alot of interviews books ive read say bruce was cocky inclduing all your stuff so id say it is safe to assume this to be true. I think everything out their can be bias in someway so youll never get the full truth on bruce only way to do that was to meet the man himself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2005
  3. fermento

    fermento New Member

    i saw him the other day dispatching of two scoundrels,
    (lets not dint the respect of bruce, eh? dont talk bad about a dead person)
     
  4. 1 inch lunch

    1 inch lunch Valued Member

    Bruce Lee - 18 months of training? Not really. He competed in western boxing for years (I presume with some training?) and trained under Sifu Yip Man for longer than that as I remember (OK, so I don't have specifics and am too lazy to research right now, but...). Then we've also established he was a "student" of several other MAists as well.

    I've heard anecdotal evidence of him being challenged regularly while in HK filming. But if people are going to throw BL out as a "greatest" contender, how about the other famous Yip Man student Wong Shun Leung? He had some 100s of documented "challenge" fights and street fights (including bare hand vs. weapons - almost lost an eye to a knife :eek: ) to back up. Pretty good in his day....

    I think if I got in a "fight" with Bruce in his day all he'd have to do is a 1 finger push up and I'd forfeit on freak factor :)
     
  5. Taff

    Taff The Inevitable Hulk


    He did boxing in school, he didn't train in it strongly, he had to use wing chun and adapt it to win that boxing tournament.
    He trained in Wing Chun from the ages of 13 to 18, some in Yip Mans school, but most I think was with Wong Shun Leung (I think?). Wong encouraged him to fight other styles and acted as a referee in some of his rooftop fights. I'm pretty sure Wong was an ex boxer.
    In terms of forms, when he left Hong Kong, Bruce Lee knew SNT and Chum Kiu ie two thirds of the empty hand system, plus one third of the dummy. Some say he went back to HK to learn the Biu Jee form.
    Even though he didn't know the whole system, he was good at it because he trained hard and had good natural attributes.
     
  6. 1 inch lunch

    1 inch lunch Valued Member

    Yeah Taff, just reading a book today on Wong Shun Leung. He did say he coached and refereed for him. Also said young Bruce used to tell WSL's other students that WSL was out or sick on their arrival at his house for training, then capitalise on the ensuing "private" lessons! ha!

    Bruce was gonna be good no matter what he did. About biu jee, I heard rumours he tried to get Yip Man to teach him biu jee later but was turned down? Funnily enough (as I see it, but I'm talking with undoubtebly a lot of holes in my knowledge of Bruce and his training/teaching) a lot of Bruce's early ideas of rigidity in MAs, and his subsequent developement of his own ideas are similar to the biu jee sentiments of "breaking all the rules", or using everything and not sticking to a "style". That's how I interpret biu jee ideas anyways.
     
  7. Simple

    Simple New Member

    yo

    bruce lee was good and smart. I rather fear a smart fighter than a strong fighter, and about silva, didnt takanori gomi defeat him in Bushido? Takanori gomi 5'7? 150 pounds, lil fat, quick, has a godo fighter mentality, mad reflexes, good technique. He kinda remind me of bruce lee, except bruce lee was more rip.
     
  8. tel

    tel absorb what is useful for

     
  9. KurtCobain2902

    KurtCobain2902 New Member

    I have a movie called Curse of the Dragon that has alot of that stuff in it. It's a documentary. There's interviews with Chuck Norris, Bruce's brother, Dan Insonato or some crap like that. It's pretty good. Go buy it.
     
  10. tel

    tel absorb what is useful for

    i didn't think much of that one, prob cos there is loads of them out there and they all show same stuff
     
  11. Faminedynasty

    Faminedynasty Valued Member

    It is ultimately speculation as to whether Bruce was the greatest fighter of all time, or who he could and could not defeat. But, from the clips I have seen of Bruce in training, I do not believe that I have ever seen a fighter match his speed, and speed is a hell of a thing to have, think of Muhammad Ali.
    How well Bruce could compete with, say, Chuck Liddell or other top MMA fighters is not clear. But it is fairly safe to say that Bruce was a tremendous, incomparable stand-up fighter who recognized the importance of (and studied heavily in) grappling and the clinch. He was remarkably well-rounded, and so far ahead of his time that he may very well have been ahead of our time. But what is most important is not to speculate into just how good he really was as a fighter, but to acknowledge that martial arts are so damn good today to no small degree because of Bruce Lee. His theories revolutionized everything. He was a genius.
     
  12. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....


    Its on late night cable here about once a month...
     
  13. Theron Smith

    Theron Smith New Member

    I think Bruce was the best. He was too fast, too smart, and too strong. He only weighed 140lbs, but he had a 15 inch forearm, translation, deadly power. And not just punching power, but gripping power as well. A guy with forearms that big, I'll tell you one thing he won't get over powered easily, if at all.

    As for his fights, he was a boxing champion when he was 17 or 18, back in Hong Kong. He fought Wong Jack Mon(Grandmaster in Northern Gung Fu) because he was teaching Non-Chinese in 1964. He sparred and defeated a couple of black belts at the 1967 International Karate CHampionships, and he defeated a huge fighter in Thailand in 1970, the guy stood about 6'6 or 6'8. He was taller than the guy who portrayed him in "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story". The fight where he broke the ice on the set of The Big Boss, true story. There's footage of that,the real fight, not the re-enactment, extremely hard to get, almost impossible. He had run-ins over there in Hong Kong, not to mention he got into it with a fighter named Lao Toa Chuen on HKTVB.

    Bruce created a style of martial art like no other, taking a bunch of different styles and blending them to his liking. Boxing + Wing Chun + Taekwondo + Judo + Jiu-Jitsu + Wrestling + Aikido, and many others. _Example, so when you're in kicking range you might apply a kick from Taekwondo or Savate, then use a knee from Muay Thai, a punching combination mixed with Boxing and Wing Chun,then you might end that hand combination with an elbow from Muay Thai, then you would lock the person up by using a move from any of the grappling arts listed above. In JKD you are trained in all ranges of combat, and you flow like water.

    When you talk about hand skills, boxing is tops, then you combine that with Wing CHun , are you serious. Unbeatable, just ask that big dude that stepped to Bruce on the set of The Big Boss, what a mistake.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2006
  14. faster than you

    faster than you Valued Member

    many credit lee's theories with revolutionizing things; but, his theories are mostly borrowed or stolen. other people were cross-training before him, but more importantly cross-fighting, i.e. gracies in brazil. also he had little or no knowledge of the muay thai or greco-roman clinch which are widely regarded as the most effective clinch methodologies. he studied grappling with gene labelle, but according to gene bruce lee was more interested in techniques that look great in a film rather than effective techniques and proper training. lee was great, but would we respect him or even think of him as a great fighter had he not beaten up on bob wall and kareem abdul jabbar.
     
  15. tel

    tel absorb what is useful for

    agree with faster than you, bl borrowed his idea's from different people.

    people where cross training or learning how to counter other arts from the beginning of martial arts, thats why there are so many, people learned an art then changed it to fit them.
    after lee modified the wc beause it didn't work for him in the US,he wanted to change the way the arts where taught in the us, because they where rigid in the training and views jkd was created to counter both of these.

    some times even these two ways of hitting don't fit people so they have to look at different methods. but if you do use the two methods you stated then you have to make them fit together,timing and when to use them what way to use them.
     
  16. Nick K

    Nick K Sometimes a Valued Member

    Ikken, where are you?
     
  17. DeZzErX

    DeZzErX New Member

  18. kenpo123

    kenpo123 New Member

    Bruce Lee was way ahead of his time and by far in my opionion prob one of the best, all the old world famouce martial artist seem to think the same thing. IF lee was alive today and training for the past 30 + years do you really think he would not have continued to be ahead of our time by improving himself and learning his way (jkd). To compare him to martial artsit of today is silly. Debating on his true ability is very hard, agreed!, simply for the lack of actuall footage of him fighting real fights. BUt can you find another martial artist who moved like him? I cant!
     
  19. tel

    tel absorb what is useful for

    agree.
    you can see from video's off him and his students talking that he was exellent both with the training side and the understanding of it.
    also which is clear is his love of ma, there was a story where even tho he didn't have much money, hr did not except any money for doing the ed parker demo in '64
     
  20. Faxiapreta

    Faxiapreta New Member

    Bruce Lee looked great in demonstrations and in the movies. However, he would have been beaten by just about any top boxer, Muay Thai fighter, or freestyle or greco roman wrestler of his time. Gene Lebell regualarly manhandled him.
     
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