It may well have but it was bound to take this turn sooner or later. As far as being productive I think not for as RT stated it all comes down to opinion. Secondly some of us here have been in the sparring world and understand its limits with regard to our art where as CKava has not trained in our way. Well if your happy he is not then I must say I was wrong and say sorry to him. Not any of his replies to my posts. He has tried to cloud and confuse the issue played at being pedantic made several oxymoron replies and tried to put words into my mouth or twist what I have said out of context of its original meaning. With a view to recent topic along the same line was this thread really needed and how exactly would it have ever been productive in any manner. Maybe it should have been locked before it went sideways and as CKava said himself he got the replies he wanted in the first two pages. To paraphrase JFK Maybe we should ask not what we can add to this discussion but what this discussion adds to the ninjutsu forum of MAP ?