The Limitations of Sparring as opposed to Alternative Training Practices.

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by CKava, Jun 5, 2006.

  1. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    No its you, i think some people roll on through the ninjutsu forum looking for a wind up soometimes.
  2. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I think your a bit confused by what I meant by padding sparring gear. The gym I train at in Belfast has a concrete floor covered in rough carpet this is hardly the most forgiving surface- Im not a BJJ guy in fact I have next to no ground game and it doesn't really bother me. I also would respectfully contend your not hitting hard if your pulling your techniques which is what it sounds like your doing. If you want to understand what getting hit with gloves (I seem to have confused you by saying padded gear so Ill be more specific) is like go to a boxing gym...

    Again I dont think your quite understanding what padded sparring gear is. Have you ever watched a boxing fight in your life? They are wearing padded gear and yet I still have a feeling that all of their punches would hurt at lot more than anything you could throw with your non-padded hands. This isn't meant to insult your manhood (though Im sure you'll take it that way) it is meant to point out to you that wearing padded sparring gear makes it safe to hit with alot more force than without. Once you take the gear you are still capable of hitting that hard and in fact obviously you will hit harder.

    In a boxing fight a few years ago one boxer had real trouble for the full fight landing blows because the other guys footwork was so good after the fight ended he removed his glove and delivered one punch after the bell, that punch knocked out the guy shattering his jaw and sent him to hospital (and the other fighter rightfully to jail). Point of this is to show you that it would be impossible for a boxer to spar safely with any serious intent without gloves in fact it should be impossible for anyone who can hit hard. I would not enjoy taking a punch from a good boxer with gloves on or without because either way your really going to feel it.

    Im curious fire&steel how you could say repeatedly hit a guy in the face and not cause an injury without wearing gloves? The few times I have sparred without taking proper precuations have generally resulted in a bloody outcome even when taking it easy and Im hardly the toughiest of the tough. You seem to be under the impression that sparring is considered the same as a real fight... it isn't, sparring is a much more friendly affair but what it does do is get you used to judging distance, learning how you react to getting hit, learning how to fake and otherwise mislead people, learning how to actually hit with combinations against an evading opponent and so on. Its a very useful training method.

    Ok your really not someone its going to be possible to have a logical conversation so without further adieu...

    WHAT?!? You mean there wont be someone to call an ambulance in a real fight??? No-one told me this!!! So wait what about a referee? A scorecard? A trophy when I win? I mean they will all be there wont they? At very least wont people give me the chance to put on some sparring gear so neither of us gets injured?

    Now thats done with... sparring teaches you what its like to get hit by someone. Doing conditioning drills and various other self defence/training drills is fine but its not the same thing especially if you have to pull all your moves because they might injure your training partner. Your fear of wearing sparring gear is ridiculous and you seem to have some idea that because its padded its not tough enough. Again I would suggest (just for an experiment) get someone that can throw a decent punch, give them 12 oz gloves, let them hit you in the face hard... then see if your ideas about padding being too soft is still there.

    Thats hilarious backpeddling.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  3. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Has anyone seen sonshu lately???

    Actually, Sonshu looks like Mat Stevens off X Factor.
  4. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Not to question your judgement but you did read the posts on the last page? I would say the vast majority of this thread has been productive and sensible and it is now the uber toughie of fire&steel who is posting in a confrontational manner and making silly 'Im so tough... sports suck... padding is for wimps' posts. fire&steel is a ninjutsu practitioner and he is the one leading the thread down this path so respectfully I would suggest that it might not always be those visiting the ninjutsu forum who are responsible for a thread going down in flames. It might be the uber toughies and the guys who only chime in on a thread to complain...
  5. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    nope, i think you and people like KMguy8 like to read between the lines, i read he hits hard thats all, so do some of my guys, sometimes they like to knock each other around, where does it say he giving it the big one, its people like you who want downloads on you tube to see how hard we all are, you post one, go on, drop your training on you tube so we can all have a look.
  6. Big Will

    Big Will NinpƓ Ikkan

    The goal is not to get hit, rather the opposite. But if you're still standing in the way of a punch that's coming to you, well...

    Exactly! Excellent post!
  7. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Keikai care to find a single post where I have suggested that people should be posting something up on youtube? Also, I don't know what you define as reading between the lines but...

    I am tough.

    Sport MA's suck as obviously they don't understand sparring is not fighting.

    Padded gear is for wimps.

    Hope that clears up the lines I was reading from.

    Lastly, about putting my training up in youtube do you seriously want me to? If so why? and what in particular do you want to see?
  8. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    HMMMmmmmm it seems to be you that is confused.
    I love people like you who want to tell me what I do and don't know.

    maybe I should type slower for you ?

    I love trolls :love: :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  9. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Good enough for me!!

    Reading between the lines? did he say he was tough or just training hard???

    Thats something we agree on.

    And pads are realistic how???

    Whatever you like, but maybe something with you losing!!! :D
  10. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    fire&steel I thought you didn't want to discuss this anymore? And again what you do or do not know I can only infer from your posts given that you were ranting about padded floors when I said 'padded sparring gear' I thought it safe to assume you got the wrong end of the stick.

    Oh and the thing about typing slower is classic. I know it was meant to be cutting but given the irony that even if you typed really slow your message would still appear all at once I find it hard to be deeply wounded by such wit. But yes actually by all means type slower I am certain it will help me understand your point of view because at present it is clearly too complex for a mere mortal such as myself to comprehend.

    And to repeat what I said in response to the PM I will continue to respond to your posts with as much respect as you show me in your posts. Notice that it is possible (see earlier in the thread) to hold a civil discussion even when disagreeing and occasionally making cheeky remarks. Mind you that is if your interested in productive discussion given you've told me your not I would advise you just abandon the thread as I suggested to all people at the beginning who didnt want to discuss the topic.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  11. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang::bang: :bang: :bang: :bang::bang: :bang: :bang: :bang::bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
  12. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Keikai I hate to break it to you but kmguy and I are not the same person I can find quotes of you bashing ninjutsu if I am allowed to quote from anyone. The reason you cant quote me demanding you post your training on youtube is because I never demanded it. Allow me to quote you some things I have said that would seem to contradict the parallel your drawing between me and kmguy...

    Your other points have all been covered in my earlier reply to fire&steel but to repeat them again:

    1. Saying my training is uber tough, I train in a tough way not with sissy padding. Is to me the same as saying I am tough.
    2. People who train sports MA's are aware of what occurs in the real world. They do not expect a ref, trophies, a set of prearranged rules, rounds, a fair 1 on 1 fight, an ambulance on call etc. etc. to be provided in a street fight.
    3. Wearing 'padded sparring gear' is realistic in the sense of it allows people to actually hit each other. It is not realistic in that in the real world people do not take saftey precautions when fighting. However, we have already established that ninjutsus practitioners ALSO take saftey precautions when training with partners and therefore the suggestion that sparring is useless because of taking safety precuations is a pretty silly argument.

    EDIT: Again folks please if your not interested in this discussion then stop posting saying how uninterested you are and just actually demonstrate uninterested-ness by ignoring the thread. I actually managed to get the responses I was after when people like Dale, Shinobi, Big Will and GDC went to the bother of posting well thought out responses and Im quite content that I have a better understanding of the point that was originally being made i.e. it was not that what I would call sparring was useless but more that a competitive mindset is useless. I can respect that, I can also respect that I probably would classify some Ninjutsu training as sparring. I am now hoping for some clarification from people who are so inclined to explain the process of safety and conditioning to hits without use of padded sparring gear... not for people to go off on one about how sprts MA's don't know what life is like in the street etc.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  13. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    And your argument is???

    i have things i like about ninjutsu and things i dont, so whats your point, i am quite happy to say how i feel, as for quotes, i did not say you directly, i said people like you and kmguy8 as thats how these threads end

    Hard then prove it via video is what we hear all the time, as stated at the start, you have your training, we have ours, if you are interested then go to a dojo as the answers you get on here is what you already are getting.
  14. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Let me see you said , I think I am getting it but I can't understand how you learned to get hit without padding up and hitting each other.

    I replied that getting hit hard without pads and getting thrown as part of normal training every single week onto an unpadded concrete floor tend to take care of that problem.

    This is not to be tough it is because that is where we train.

    I have also said that you should go debate sparring with those who are interested as we are not here on this forum .
    This does not translate that I will not reply to your 1900 odd post of BS on this site.

    I can't remember if you were the one on BSD with some 5000 posts but most seem to have huge post counts on that site as well ? Seems your all good talking about what you do. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Point being Keikai you said people like me want to see youtube clips but actually I never suggested that and in fact said I dont mind how other people trained and was only interested in discussion. When asked why you assumed that I di want to see clips you quoted someone else- thats a wonderful argument.

    Again I would prefer if the thread didn't end like this and it seemed to be chugging along fine till NINJUTSU PRACTITIONERS who claim to be uninterested in such discussions started ranting about A) the wimpiness of wearing sparring gear and B) how much they dont like these discusssions. Prior to that point the discussion had been quite productive or at least it had been for me!

    Yes Im a well known troll Ive clearly only been biding my time here for 2 and a bit years waiting until people were in a false sense of security and then BHAM! Out I come to troll the ninjutsu forum... All I can say is that I regret nothing.

    I don't get why the most disinterested people are the ones who are so intent on replying?
  16. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Good summary.

    And I would argue that it doesn't. Unless your banging your head on the floor everytime you fall then hitting the floor has little to do with learning to take hits. This trains learning how to fall properly not learning what it is like to get hit. As for getting hit without gloves you said you were pulling your techniques so as not to injure your partner (which by the way is completely understandable) but that is not really showing you what it is like to get hit. You said in your PM you were once a boxer so you must know what it feels like to be rocked by a decent punch with gloves on now are you telling me that without gloves you can rock someone that hard and not injure them? If so I want to know your trick because if I hit someone as hard without gloves to the face Im quite sure it would result in a bloody mess... and once again I am not that tough its just the nature of what happens if you hit someone hard in the face.

    But given that as far as I am aware you aren't the elected spokesperson for the forum then you don't really have the right to speak for everyone else do you? If you and Keikai and co. are not interested why not stop replying and then leave the discussion to nayone so inclined. Instead of just repeatedly moaning about how uninterested you are and how nothing good can come from this. There already was productive discussion and as you just demonstarted fire&steel you can provide decent points as well but since your not interested in this discussion its pointless. So once again I suggest the best choice is just to ignore this thread.
  17. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    That would be because of the sheer number of troll threads we have had recently. How can you debate SPARRING with a style that in general does not use it ? Have I discussed sparring in any of my posts ? other than to inform you that in general we don't padded up and spar. seems you like one sided conversation. Maybe this makes your position easier to maintain.
    Also if you emptied all the PM's in your inbox I may have been able to pm you ;)

    Do you remember me also saying that we did not hit to vital areas hard like we do to body and limbs ? But then in your case the head may not be so vital.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  18. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    You know when I saw this thread appear, for a minute there I thought it was going to be another merrygoround of people coming here, generalising about all bujinkan dojos as if they're one (as if crap MA schools don't exist in other places) and just telling us how crap we are and what we're doing wrong...

    I'm so glad it didn't turn out that way!!!

    oh and...

    That was gut is sore after a few kicks to it last night, but you still gave me a good chuckle.

    By the way, I'm tough to...

    (You say "How tough?")

    I'm so tough my wife irons my gi
    While I'm wearing it! we really need to cover this again? It's so redundant.

    Here it's easy. You like what we do and how we do it? Good Join in. You don't like what we do and how we do it. Great don't join in. Done...

    But for the love of god, stop visiting threads with the bad-ass training routine because we are all pretty much bored with it. What we should do from now on is just ignore it in the hope these trolls will just fade away.
  19. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    So what you are telling me is that you have no method for training hits safely to vital areas (including the head!!!) and therefore dont take hits to them? Yet at the same time you are maintaining that you do learn to take hits better because you dont use safety equipment? You can train hits to the head if you use safety equipment... Why limit yourself so much? If you find such equipment restrictive then you could even just have the opposing training partner wearing safety gear so that they could actually try to hit you (even on the face!!!) while you try to perform your defence.

    Being an ex boxer don't you know what its like to get hit in the head hard?!? Don't you understand the difference between that and getting hit in say the chest hard... it has a different effect! How are people going to be aware of that effect if they never experience it in training? Real fights? If so does that mean you expect everyone who trains to be involved in real fights and if they havent then tough they'll just have to learn whats its like when the situation arises?
  20. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    perhaps you should go get a bujinkan lesson from a decent instructor.
    Then all your answers will be solved.

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