The Limitations of Sparring as opposed to Alternative Training Practices.

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by CKava, Jun 5, 2006.

  1. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    No. Not a single one. I don't feel the need to read the same crap in different piles. so I just put in my .02 and went on my way. I disagree with the training methodology. I don't feel its conducive to building a proper fighter in terms of endurance, reflexes, and coordination in making a fighter of whatever style or creed easier to apply the techiques they have learned.
  2. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    In my book, it is not the trait of a wise man to close his eyes and yell "I disagree!". The same goes for people who are told something and act as if they weren't.

    If you want to participate in a discussion (which you have now done - twice in this thread) you should give and receive. You don't have to adopt what others tell you, but consider it and base further arguments on your newfound knowledge.

    From what you wrote now, anyone here can instantly see you haven't read (or tried to understand) anything that Dale and the others have written. Which is a shame, since they use up their time to give us such well written posts :(
  3. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    In other words, you don't even understand what this thread is about.

    Thank you for so perfectly illustrating my points in post #19. :rolleyes:
  4. Shau

    Shau kurai okami

    To CKava: Heh, I guess I did say make a new thread. I didn't mean to imply to really make a new thread seeing how it has been done to death, but I meant to imply that the particular thread in question wasn't about sparring, so sparring should be put in a new thread. Which you did, so yeah, I will admit, I did put my foot in my mouth. ;) Now as for the ABCD's

    A) Sorry, I mistook your question. My girl was getting ready for work, so I was trying to help her and type a response at once. (She's pregnant, so yeah I have to help her, or else she will kill me). I understand your question now, but I think everyone else here has already answered.

    B) How to train to take hits without sparring? Simple. Taiso. Plus, we dont hold back in my class (sometimes). If we don't move right, we get hit. My instructor's words "No, throw the attack at me, if I don't get out of the way, it's my fault."

    C) Disagree. I don't believe sparring is the only way to get experience of trying to perform techniques against someone who is actively resisting. A good uke will give resistance, and even try to counter if you did something wrong. Again, in my class, we never stop with a movement. If we mess it up, we either go into something else, or the uke reverses it on us. There is no stopping, no pauses, no "wait, wait, let me try that again."

    D) Hmm, maybe our definitions of sparring are different. Then again, I think it just breaks down to the way we train. My best friend and I both train at the same school. Even when we are just hanging out, we throw random attacks at each other spontaneously just to keep each other "on edge." Weeks could go by with no attack, but we could just be playing video games and then here comes an omote shuto. It's more spontaneous randori than sparring.

    My definition of sparring: Coming from a TKD/Karate/Jujitsu background, I see sparring like a point match. So as not to be repetative, my view is similar to Mr. Seago's view.

    After re-reading that, I think I came off a little more harsh than intended. And when I said people get jumpy, I wasn't necessarily referring to you. Just read the Ninjutsu forums for the past month and see how much hostility has come out from discussions lately. Mainly from people outside the art or who know little about the art, and think they are the Know-All End-All Martial Arts Guru. Anyways, I do agree with a lot that you say. In fact I think I said it somewhere on here before... I used to love to spar and used to think it was the greatest thing ever. My views changed (and it was Kung Fu, not taijutsu, that changed them).

    I still stand by my claims. I feel that momentum done from sparring, and momentum done by training with a resistant opponent are two different things. It could be used in the same context, but then again, it breaks down to a person's definition of sparring. I do agree that performing controlled techniques against a resisting opponent is a good training tool (even tho I don't see that as sparring). Going back to definitions...
    That's the best definition that agrees with my mentality.

    If a person spars or not is completely up to them. The fact that they are training in the first place is what's important.
  5. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    To be honest thanks to the last few replies I think I now understand where your coming from and it also seems to majoritively be an issue of semantics as nobody seems to be denying the need to train against a resisting opponent. Only point Im still a little unclear of is how you get used to getting hit without using such things as padded sparring gear?
  6. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    I dont think you ever get used to getting hit. If you think you are used to it, you're fooling yourself.

    The best way to not get hit is to not be there. ;)
  7. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Just to extend on what Will touched on. Hatsumi-Sensei isn't teaching us techniques per say, he's teaching principles and concepts which lead to the flow. The techniques are merely a vehicle through which the art is driven. Living examples if you will of what happens when the principles and concept are integrated.

    Rather than practicing a set robotic Kata, and getting hung up on the unique parts of it, we're learning to analyze the situation and flow with it, with this principle/concept.
  8. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Well let me give you a hint. We get hit hard no pads to all areas except vitals they are still hit but in a way so as not to injure the Uke! We don't train on nice padded floors we get thrown onto nice unpadded concrete or rough surfaces like the ground.

    What a joke getting hit with pads gets you use to being hit :D.
    You people seem to think this arts is about Brawling. If it were why would we bother to train with weapons ? Do you think when we are doing unarmed work that we suddenly forget that they can be pulled on you or by you at anytime ? Still you guys have you nice pads on so are insulated from the real world :rolleyes:
    When you people understand that reality begins and ends at the door of every single dojo in the world regardless of style or training ethos or how hard you beat on each other it is not nor will it ever be reality. Because when you get hurt someone will call and ambulance.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  9. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    where do you train
    I call you a liar
    a fake and a fraud
    tell me where this is
    you hit 100% with no pads everywhere except vitals...

    I will fly to this location and tape you (wthin reason)
    my expense
    you wiling to stand by your word?
  10. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    You can call me what ever you want. I said we get hit hard. Come on over I would be most happy to have you as a guest at our dojo and get on the mat with you just sign the waiver. I train in Adelaide Australia. PM me when you get here and we will pick you up from the airport.
  11. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    hmmm.. too far mate.. not made of cash
    I forgot you were in OZ
    still do not buy it.... but hey
    can not afford a trip down under right now
    instead... why don't you just tape your "sparring" session and put it up on youtube or something
    I'd love to visit... and fight....
    it is out of my means at the moment :(

    edit.. i checked to be sure...

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  12. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Well never mind the invite is open to you at any time.My Instructor visits Florida to do seminars from time to time. Next time he is going over there I will pm you and you can attend and get on the mat with him. We are not interested in cameras or proving anything in public to you or anyone else. Just go to his seminar and tell him that the Blacksmith told you to ask for a lesson. If you have some friends in OZ that would like to visit just let us know any time my friend.
  13. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    thats cool.. do let me know
    I mean it
    private or public..
    two things I'll never turn down
    a good scrap & a cold beer
    since I can not test your training.. i apologize for putting you on the spot
  14. DuncanM

    DuncanM Valued Member

    I love a good internet tough guy. I bet you are so tough your computer doesn’t even have a mouse – it uses a RAT !!

    Seriously, not only were you willing to travel but you even posted the screen image to prove it. LOL
    A good indicator is to view the previous posts by the user. Kmguy8 has a good spread across the martial arts styles here with his trolling.

    Now before this turns in the back and forth with your reply of “No, I really am tough” how about a little bit more info about yourself?

    Your real name.

    Where you teach MA (as claimed in your profile)

    What your military background is (as claimed)

    In which dojos you have trained.

    Which MMA events you have participated in.

    Who (of any note) you have fought, spared against.

    Maybe, I’m wrong and you do have a background beyond watching clips on youtube and writing on internet message boards. If so it shouldn’t be too hard to prove.

    How to Spot a Virtual Tough Guy
  15. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    All this trolling is being driven by some goldfish called VIRUS on BS.
    VIRUS is an ex Dean Whittle student , who is/was a WLR student who is not a Bujinkan member but an indie . So Mr Virus's knowledge of the Bujinkan could be written on a postage stamp.

    Mr Virus you are invited to come train with me at anytime ! We will provide you with somewhere to stay and even pass the hat around and help out with you airfare if you need it. As I said to you before I will train with you in any old stale way you like and only use that method and you can attack me in any "live" manner you like.
    So MR Virus how about you stop hiding behind your computer and come visit. An old LARPER like me should be easy for you to handle :eek:
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  16. BocaDeCalca

    BocaDeCalca New Member

    Didn't you just say above that anyone who trains with padded gloves or mats is living in a virtual fantasy world, playing the light-cycle game from Tron?
  17. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Yep I did. "MAT" is just an expression of speech.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  18. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

  19. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Yes, thats a great one, i see this thread did turn out for the best then!!! :D
  20. jules

    jules lurking bacteria

    is it me, or do alot of posters that come here these days use a kind of good cop, bad cop, posting style?

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