Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by KGS BBS, Jul 26, 2006.
No offense, but that didn't answer or even address my questions. :bang:
I'm not sure when the tapes were shot, but they were what Geary submitted to Gascon for rank.
Pesare did not have a black belt when he started back east. Sonny Gascon's rank is up in the air. No one seems to know when he got his first black belt or from whom.
It's a matter of trying to clear things up in terms of history, but no one is willing to step forward and say it one way or the other. For years people just assumed that Gascon got his black belt from Leoning before breaking off and forming Karazenpo. No one questioned the talent of him or his students, so it didn't really occur to anyone to ask. However, when AKJA pointed out the dates and the fact that Leoning was only a brown belt when he came to California, it begged the question about Gascon. I basically dropped the issue at that point. Then, out of nowhere, this thread was started.
Ultimately who cares what rank Sonny Gascon was? It's more an issue of historical curiosity at this point. Someone back east named Joe Shuras, from Gascon's lineage came on here and started saying that the People that founded Kajukenbo were lying about how it started, so the question was returned to him about the people that started his own lineage.
We're still waiting for the answers.
Most of the points about rank not equating to skill are true. But they are usually made by people who place a great deal of value on their rank. Rank should mean something, but it doesn't always. That can go both ways. If Pesare was as talented as his students claim, then his having low rank didn't mean very much. If Geary is as untalented as his clips indicate, then his having high rank doesn't mean very much.
Sonny Gascon may have been a very talented martial artist, and therefore deserving of all of the recognition that his students give him. He probably was. That's not the point though. The point is that no one was really questioning things until someone high up in his organization like Joe Shuras started coming on here and saying that Kajukenbo people were liars. Once the can of worms is opened, then let's get all the facts on the table.
The reason that a "Sit Down" is not the way to go, is because the original accusations were made publicly and they shouldn't be answered privately.
Now, Mike Rash had nothing to do with this stuff on here, he never came on the forums and contradicted the founder's story, he never called any one in the Kajukenbo hierarchy liars etc., so it's totally understandable if he wants it to end without coming on here himself to answer things he never said. But Joe Shuras, the "Acting President" of Sonny Gascon's organization at the time DID come on here to start things. Take a look at the first post in the thread. Why the "acting president" doesn't seem to have the phone number of Mr. Gascon to ask him a simple question and come back here where he started this crap and tell everyone, I don't know.
Yea peter it did, but it went over your head. Sorry sometimes it gets me in trouble talking in riddles..
Dan covered it pretty well, I am really not that much in the know as Dan is on that particular subject. But don't get all caught up in what he say's, it may not be as easy to point out as some want others to believe.
One of the reasons I sent that message to John to meet with Sonny. If he will that would settle some of the problems right there, each other talking to one another man to man..
When you speak in riddles you do not answer anything, it is a non-answer.
We could go on and on regarding your thought on talking in riddles. But I would just kindly ask you to look up the word.
I remember in College back in the early 70's and having discussions on this very subject.
I mentioned I am sorry, about that. But sometime's I do it and that is the way it is with me.
What I said to you fits this situation (in my mind very clearly).
What Dan is selling you is his opinion and trying to convince others of his vast knowledge on this particular problem that goes back a very long way.
I could start out by saying that some claim that because Chow's certificate was not signed by his teacher James Mitose, his Black belt is not valid.
So if we play that game as is being played right now on this board. We can go to BYU and say that EP was not qualified to teach and start a school.
Or Emperado's Kajukenbo has many flaws in the way it is mentioned.
Many Bad Mouth Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, two on this board especially. They are the same ones that I disagree with regarding John Leoning and Sonny Gascon.
So it boils down to a couple of things, one being what I mentioned in the first place, that was a riddle, or if you want to believe what someone has for an agenda. One of the persons is considered well written and an established historian.
The other has gone from one side to the other and I don't know whence he came in the first place. But I do know he is really close to John's way of thinking at this particular date and time.
So agendas are really a big deal. I tell people I am in search of the truth. I believe I am. But as you can see when I entered this board just a few days ago I was attacked by two that I am referring to.
So that is my thoughts as of now. It really does not answer your question with a pat answer but I have to warn you there are many stories.
Reminds me of the MA that I prefer at this time in my life which is Filipino MA
there are over 7000 islands in the area we call the Filipines there may not be as many styles but there are many many styles and systems.
Funny as it may seem, most claim to be the best. Or the oldest or their founder killed more in duels Blah Blah.. or they never lost a match...
Hope this helps a little Peter. Next time I won't be so flipant, OK?
Hi, Unfortunatly Prof. Godin made some bad choices and "drug" some nice folks down the shute with him.
He hit the bucket a few times and was expunged from some history or lineage.
So not to much is written on him. John Bishop could say more but I doubt he will. But he claims to be an historian so when you are in that catagory or place yourself there it is history.
Persons with an agenda will pick and chose what they want to profess, others will try and tell it like an historian and they don't glorify one and leave the others out.
I can tell you more but I have stirred up a little bit and have only been here for a few days.
Maybe Dan could expound on it since he figures he has all the answers. He is pretty critical and likes to say things that copies John at this point and time.
Might be because he is a student of Johns, I believe but don't quote me on that one.
I think he learned a lot from videos and being a bouncer.
Now he is a teacher or a baby sitter I am not sure what is more appropriate. He will mention it now that I have. Or not.
On some boards he is very well spoken and informative, on others he is pretty disrespectful. Not just toward me (perpetual student) but others who are seniors and been in the trench's...
I personally went to bat for him so he would not get banned from a board I like and am on. He refers to me as there favorite troll, I believe John uses that term, so Dan does also, see where I am coming from?
A troll in my thoughts is someone who is just a big mouth and stops in and throws out slurs and leaves and then returns a few days or a week later and does it again. I believe on the San Jose Kenpo board Dan fit's that word to a tee..
He sure likes to use it all the time.. But like I mentioned so does John Bishop.
I would like to carry on good written communications, but since I do get attacked because I might differ with someone, I will try and settle it without the big attack but when dealing with that type of personality it is difficult.
As been mentioned, I have been banned from a couple of boards, both are ones that John Bishop frequents and so does Dan.
John being a moderator on one of them, I disagreed with what he was saying and I was banned, he will deny that he had anything to do with it but that is not being what is in the "Book of five rings" as the first principle (honesty).
IMHO...The book of five rings is written by Musashi and been translated by several...
I have about 5 books on Musashi several are very informative some are just the one book by different translators which of course are good because it brings different slants to how they see the words "Kanji" and how they want to inturpret them. Kanji is very complex.
Tough for westerners to comprehend.
I also have many dictionaries about Kanji, how and what it means and what each, extra, stroke added will change the way it is being used. The most complex one I have is the New Nelson Dictionary it is very through and takes time to decipher but it is definitly the best out there.
I usually workout at this time on saturdays at a school, but instead I thought this was a worthwhile time to try and straighten out some of what I thought was important.
I missed the school class mostly free time, but I am going to go and work out in my garage and do what is necessary with a few of the bags and sticks to get in a couple of hours of work..
Last but not least I mentioned Dan and videos. I believe they are a very good tool and give you quite a bit of information that always is not covered in class or may not be of the school you attend so it is not taught.
I personally have at least 60 of various DVD's and Videos. I like them but, it gets very expensive and along with other things, like seminars and not just ones put on by who agree with you or who you agree with, but ones that are of different styles and systems, it is very time consuming and costly.
The new wave of the future seems to be going to that and also teaching via the internet. Not really a bad way to go. But it is extra time and money. I am pretty much retired (65) this year so I try to stay busy both mentally and Physically.
Regarding books I have hundreds and not just on Martial arts subjects and thoughts (Opinions) but on many many subjects.
So I am new to this board, but not to this world...
Well, this is too full of inaccuracies to go into at length, but suffice it to say that one need not be an expert on everything, but merely just go back and re-read this entire thread to see where I'm coming from.
Some people make a practice of supplying information to people based merely on conjecture and rumor and others based on evidence and first hand information. I started out believing the former, and now believe the latter. Trust me, when I found out how much I was duped in the past by people I trusted, it wasn't a pleasant experience. The only thing that made it easier to take was that the people who told me this stuff really believed it themselves. Unfortunately, they couldn't see the light the way I could and so there was a rift. I won't say more than that about it.
As to Gary trying to defend me at San Jose Kenpo: give me a break! He wrote me emails trashing the people there and then went on their boards trashing me. When I exposed him for that, he blew a gasket. But then I found out he was not well mentally and I just call him a troll now as most of his posts are merely amusing when they're not tedious.
A riddle is a "a question or statement requiring thought to answer or understand . . . something perplexing, an enigma"
Unfortunately to answer your question would require conjecture on my part which would make it potentially unreliable. So perhaps I can offer you a model answer.
1) I do not know if Gascon was a black belt before he started his art.
2) Gascon was a black belt under ____________ awarded in ________(year) when he started his art in 1958.
3) Gascon was not a black belt but it doesn't matter because neither was Ed Parker etc.
1) I don't know the year when Geary's first tape was filmed.
2) Geary's tape was filmed in ___________(year).
See how simple that is? :Angel:
Yes that does help, I will just go with #1 on both. Thanks for your help.
But, I did read that a guy, who is a friend of the person's, granddad mentioned that he knew for sure. Blah Blah LOL
To be honest I really did not think your question was serious. How can you ask that after reading all this bs about legit rank and legit anything about these fiefdoms.
I was at John Leoning school in the 60's as a white belt before I became a LEO. (When going onto a department they pretty much dictate the types of ways you will try and control a situation. They have policies written they want you to go by, those change quite often depending on the last case law handed down). Needless to mention, but I will. The stuff being taught was not really approved, that I was learning. But it was a great thing that I did learn them and other means of fighting that I got while in the Marine Corps.
On LAPD they had a certain person who was approved his name is/was Bob Koga...He taught what the department wanted. I believe his own system was Ki Aikido??? Have you read about the people with his last name in Japan and their system???
A few years later LAPD went with what Judo Gene was teaching along with whatever worked. Lots of chokes and armbars and punching and hitting..Hey back to what I was learning at Johnny's I can go along with that..Great...
So here I am thinking John and Sonny both had black belts and were very high ranked and doing some good stuff. Had winners in events etc involved in the movies Kung Fu and all. Similar to EP but they had not trained Elvis. LOL...
So about a year and a half ago, John Bishop says he just got through with a week-end with Sijo and none of what had been said for the last 40 years was true nobody was a black belt, and John came over as a brown to open the school and like sure, I am supposed to believe it. Especially when Johnny was one of the higher and longer involved in the arts. If you look at the time line in Matthew's web site you will know what I am saying.
Not only that but all these guys had the filipino arts behind them the hidden art of all of this Kajukenbo and Karazenpo stuff. Plus they had Mitose's stuff that was taught, and Chow, hey they worked out with EP and were even senior to him, Johnny anyway or so I thought.
When in the states these people all knew each other and they all had such great stories about the old neighborhood and the gangs and, hey what we teach is really just good old Hawaii street fighting.
You know "Karate, Gung/Kung Fu, Kenpo all combined...LOL
If you would have asked me the first question, 2 years ago I would of said oh yea, I had met Sonny and he was a black belt and had his own system and he and Johnny were amigos and did some cool stuff and we used to chat and BS about what kind of a person the founder of Kajukenbo was and why they changed the name of their system, and trained with Kung Fu persons because that was what was really the older and better stuff... Hey I had all the answers...LOL
But in the blink of an eye and meeting with Sijo, John informed the world that Sijo had changed his mind and revealed this new and more improved version.
Hope you might understand why I might be a little leary as to the quality of that particular advice.
So maybe John might meet with Sonny this weekend and come back with a new and different thought, or not.
Like I said stay tuned, it is a never ending fact finding venture.
By the way you did not have "none of the above", so I really don't think it is a fair question...
Dan You are really good I have to give it to you, I e-mailed that stuff to Ted and he can veryify it.
But Hey, why go there, you would not even go and see Hanshi Juchnik. You and John been bad mouthing him for so long.
Here he was 30+ minutes from you and all you had to do was talk to him but no you did not do it. I had it set for you, gave you the phone number and you don't go LOL...
Here it is and John gets a chance to meet Sonny and he is going to be minutes away, we will see what happens there. Call me names fine...
Dan lets just say we are never going to get along. LOL...As much as I have tried and I have, you are the one who has the mouth and you are the person who is what You and John call a troll...
Anyone doubt it, slip over to SanJoseKenpo and find out...In fact bring it up on the board and see what Ted will tell you. He is the Sijo of the board....
Sorry you got caught up in this mess with Gary. But believe me, your not the first, and won't be the last.
Gary started this stuff a couple years ago at Martial Talk. He's known for his constant arguing and incoherrant babbling, and of course the riddles that had nothing to do with the discussions. He was especially good at throwing out insults and innuendo at any kenpo leader who wasn't Bruce Juchnik.
Well he got banned from Martial Talk, and then snuck in again under another user name and got banned again. He then took his show to Kenpo Talk, and got banned there pretty quick. That was followed by a banning at the Kajukenbo Cafe.
Then he decided to move over to San Jose Kenpo with the same insulting bahavior, and incoherant rantings. So he was banned there. Again he changed his user name and came back after laying low for a while. So most of the people there just decided to ignore him.
He kept bothering me so much with his incoherrant emails, even after I told him not to contact me anymore, that I had to block his email address. He then used another email address to contact me again. Which I had to block.
So to get away from his rants, I left the San Jose Kenpo forum about a year ago. Now he comes over here because I ignore any of the insults he throws out at me in his posts at SJK, and kenponet.
He goes on forums and acts like he knows the history of all the kenpo systems, and then insults anyone who disagrees with him. Even though he's never been a kenpo practitioner.
Now he's telling you about Sijo Emperado's "new and improved version" of history. Truth of the matter is that he's never met or talked to Sijo Emperado. His actual Kajukenbo experience consisted of 3 months of training at John Leoning's school in the 60's, (which is in question since none of Leoning's early students ever heard of him). And by his own admission he never actually had any instruction from Leoning, just his assistant instructors.
But he want's everyone to believe that in those 3 months as a white belt, he hung around with John Leoning and Sonny Gascon, and learned all the history and truth about Emperado, Parker, Chow, Leoning, and Gascon. Funny how Leoning wouldn't take the time to teach him, but spent countless hours with him discussing history and personalities.
So I'm sure now he'll come back on and say I'm lying, and again accuse me of constantly attacking his beloved Hanshi Juchnik. But if your really bored, you could check my past posts on any forum and not find any attacks on his beloved Hanshi. And if your really, really bored you can learn a lot about Gary from reading his past posts on the forums he frequents or got banned from. Pre-ban name "GAB", post-ban name "BGile".
So anyway, it looks like I'll have to use the "ignore" function for Gary at this forum too.
John you use words like beloved hanshi and you don't even realize your own continuation of your "Sijo" stuff, sad.
I am sure you have reworked any or all threads that have anything we have talked about, you just ignored the one you wrote a year a go or so that I posted and you show a person beating a dead horse, that is different then what you are saying today, like I said sad.
You are a twister of words and and a person who changes quite a bit of stuff at your leisure. I can see why you and Joe have problems. Now you have Joes old friend with you. I don't know if that is good or bad but is pathetic the way you use your position and knowledge.
You have been shown to post as a different person and then never come back you aren't that tricky. I remember you were giving information about Motobu I called you on it and you were wrong, you just left..LOL I cited a book by a fellow named Bishop. Kind of funny I think...
You ask to be deleted here because some one challanges you. You are going to put me on ignore, grow up. You just can't stand to be called and then you go into a tirade.
Always attacking someone who might have heard it different or know it to be different before your beloved Sijo changed his mind.
These fiefdom wars are sad how do you do it all the time? And of course you are always right, if not you show a picture of a horse being beaten and then when I try to talk and carry on you now attack
John did you meet with Sonny? Probably not? Just like Dan was a no show when the chance was there to meet Hanshi. I give you a message and you scould me and attack the messenger LOL...
Boy if I had as much time as you do on these threads I'd be pretty defensive also.
Enough John, some other time, when Thomas writes that book and another year goes by and something else will change...
Poor guy being a victim from a guy who just happened to mention in the first place that you and Sijo came up with a new version. Others know, that is what counts. The world is watching John that is what is important.
No need to be deleted or hide at the cafe I am not going to ask anymore questions or take up your time it certainly is not worth it.
I don't believe I was banned from the cafe just not allowed in. Chicken? LOL
Last thing, did you talk to Sonny? Ask him about that picture?
Ed Parker Interviews
BTW Gary, I thought you might be interested in what Ed Parker had to say about the Tracy Brothers and James Mitose.
Here's some articles of interviews with Ed Parker:
Just go to the links and either open them or save them to your computer.
Dan, I'll go check it out. If you think your eyes are bleeding, how about my poor old fingers..LOL
I hope you do join in on the video thing. Thanks for the invitation.
Gary, I hope that means you're in on showing us your stuff. I'm sure that you must have a lot of white belt forms from over the years.
Actually I don't do much organized kata as you would do.
I do mostly freeform and a lot of stick work and hitting of bags as in boxing drills and the filipino boxing stuff.
I am doing what the term "Kosho" is supposed to be but some are not up to speed on what it means, we have mentioned it before...conceptual training, continuous moving, and I do most of the working out and training by myself at the school in the mornings.
Some times like today I am going to go out in the garage and hit the speed bag after my grandson gets finished he has been at it for about an hour, now time for me....
It is the training part as in what Mitose mentions, lots of foot work the filipino triangles, "male female" along with the octagon moves. Lot of shadow boxing and speed bags all of the various sizes, running in place and practicing my kicks and muay thai type of drills, lots of heavy bag stuff and the two ended I like it and of course the leg work, jumping two legged and breathing exercises.
I am not sure if I'll participate or not, I'll see what others do and enjoy what I do as a forty + year white belt...Thanks for asking though.
I am sorry for you being drug into this by John posting to you.
I did not learn all of what I now talk about at that time in No. Hollywood in the 60's.
I was a carpenter in the Studios at the time and I knew a few things about the studios and the rumors about this or that. But back to what you have been subjected to.
Yes it was very common to be taught by people other then the Owner and the Sensei of the studio. Common practice like I mentioned. I could have mentioned it different and really it would not matter, still the smack talk continues..
One of the reason's I was able to get into some conversations is I was in the studios and I was an X Marine. I was fortunate for while in the Corps I was aboard a ship as a "sea going bell hop" a term used by Marines, anyone else was into a pretty good altercation if they mouthed off...
So while aboard the USS Canberra CAG-2. I was fortunate to make a world cruise. I hit many places, Hawaii, Filipines (I use that spelling because I am in that art) you name it and I have been there or real close. Japan, Hong Kong
I could go on a long time. No reason just google the ship and you will find the date and time and the cruise..
They saw my tat and we talked, I mentioned Hotel street and Subic Bay.
So I did get to hear some stories. I also told them some because of the HASP and Shore Patrol working side by side in the areas when we were on liberty. Good times...Hawaii was pretty rough for service men, getting rolled and fighting all the time with the locals.
Was that way pretty much in the era all over where we went, the world, I found out at 17 was not our friends or so it seemed in the ports I hit. Oh they were our friends but we payed for it.
The reason I know so much about this topic is Yes I was there in the 60's and yes I did a lot of reading and I was a LAPD.
Fights, yes I have a few under my belt. Actually I wore a black belt for years.
Had a gun and a club and a sap and handcuffs and I was in Metro Division when I retired because of injuries sustained on the job. Some real mean altercations when working undercover...And quite a few while working uniform..
I had 2 back surgeries over a period of 3 years and then they decided to pension me off. I was only off of the job for about 4 months and went back to work at Metro. That is when we were at Georgia street and we had the call sign of 114...They still do but now they are at Parker Center and other locations.
So while I rode the desk in Metro I was involved with all the training and shooting and all the good stuff out in Lopez cyn. I was attached to SWAT "D" team at times, and at times I was with "B" team Valley and I was attached to "A" team inside.
I got injured again and had to have a second surgery in 1977 that was a fusion and I ran out of IOD time and they pensioned me off in 1978.
I do real well because of all the time I have studied MA of one kind or another or was doing it in my own gyms. I have had speed bags since I was a little guy. Moving around doing the right exercise's (I learned those from Vince's Gym on Ventura Blvd. in Studio city).
I am a person who reads a lot I have also done a lot of things in my life. I never cared to be a Black belt or be involved in the BS that has been going on since Funakoshi and Motobu or before, LOL.
But back in 87 when I first met Hanshi Juchnik and studied for awhile and then I moved to where I am now and met Pat Kelly.
My son is a Black belt in Hanshi's org he is also a 4th in the arts of Kabaroan Escrima. My Grandson who now lives here is a Orange I believe. He has not gone there in years but he has been to Gathering. I have another Grandson who is a green in Kovars in Elkgrove kiddie stuff.
I work out with each I have mentioned and I work out myself all the time.
The orange one is 17- 6'2" 195? works out all the time, swims he is a lifeguard rating stong and he knows Kosho. My youngest son is taller and weighs about the same and is good at MA and FMA and shooting.
My other son was DOA in 1999...
I have been married to the same wife since 63.
So as John has mentioned he and I go back and we disagree. He is full of himself and so we argue at times. LOL
If you look at my back ground you might understand why I don't care for his BS..
I have a lot of knowledge that I don't share, why trash talk so much. The whole thing of fiefdoms is "goofer dust" stuff (borrowed that from Dan) he was cutting up a senior on SJK...
Any way that is just some of my background...Oh, I am a very good shot and have trophies. I was the president of Eldorado Gun Club in 86 on the board of directors for 5 years.
Now I just do MA help my grandson, go shooting about once a week, at a indoor range in Elk Grove, where I live and that is the name of the martialarts acadamy I work out at. I still do construction. I am 6'2'+ brn and blu 230+- or so and I am in pretty good shape for the shape I am in.
So that is my story for you and others... You got to wonder why John would say what he does and how he still gets away with it, Dan also. But I take it with a grain of salt. I have walked the walk, so it does not really bother me. :cry: Not hardly LOL
Sonny Gas is bullxxxx, quote: "You tell that mutha xxxxxx Bishop that I'm not asking for a meeting, I'm calling a meeting, I'm telling Emperado to set up a meeting with Bishop and this mutha xxxxxx wants to call me a phonie, this mutha xxxxxx can do it to my face!
Re: last 'dig' on bullshido, that the xxxxxx (John) has never responded to me as asked to set up his end of the meeting as Joe Shuras posted on MAP
I am sending this above item to you before I put it out on the viewing locations...
I have been in contact with Mike Rash trying to find out about more information about Sonny Gascon and Johnny Leoning.
I mentioned it to John B about getting a hold of Sonny at Mike's and he called me a messenger boy or something like that and then ran off about something else regarding a meeting.
Mike Rash has contacted me again, above is the message to John and Sijo.
Mike Rash said that John has posted something on Bullshido and Sonny is really mad, also he is mad because John B never called Mike to meet.
He read our posts and said John is a Liar and he had better call..
He asked me to send this quote because it is from Sonny and it is his words.
I am doing it this way since John said I will be on the ignore. I'll give you 30 minutes then it hits the web...1900 our time amigo..I think John should call or the rift is going to widen...
Wierd about this, totally weird. John and I have our differences but I believe this is pretty important Dan.
Well Dan, here it is You know John mentioned I am on the ignore so I am doing it this way. It took me some time since you wrote me over at SJK and now I am writing you here...
I enjoy following historical threads but am fairly confused...
BGile- Can you summarize your points? All I have so far is that you are or were Kosho and you really disagree/ dislike Sigung Bishop. (Danjo also maybe?)
I must admit that Sigung Bishop is in my opinion, the most honest and accurate poster on any of the MA sites that I travel. He has done a TON of research and he goes directly to the source. Hard to refute it would seem. In a web-world where accusations fly and inaccuracies seem to be everywhere, I take Sigung Bishop's stuff as FACT.
Danjo also seems fair-minded and it is obvious that he spends alot of time trying to understand the history of Kempo/ Kenpo. Danjo always makes sense so I appreciate his efforts also!
I do NOT want to fan the flames but BGile, your stuff would be easier to follow if it were shorter and more coherent.
Just my observation (.02)
Have a great night!
Yes it does look like I stepped into the middle of a real mess. Perhaps this will someday inspire a sequal to the movie "The Game of Death" with all these Kempo guys trying to battle their way to the top of the pagoda to obtain the one true tenth degree black belt.
Sorry I had to try to inject some humor into this.
Separate names with a comma.