The Kuk Sool Global Alliance

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Ki_Power, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    OK.....someone may have answered this already..........but what exactly would be the benefits of joining such an organization?

    In the case of the NKMAA, Master Timmerman is pretty much a "known quantity", as it were. Most people who are curious about the NKMAA can go to that website, and get a sense of the different levels of engagement with the organization, the sorts of programs available and so forth. I've always had the idea that the NKMAA association was very much an organization "by invitation" though on a very low-key level as distinguished by an attitude of "we have something for everyone" or "all styles are welcome to join" sort of attitude.

    I guess I am missing what the actual advantage is to getting involved with this latest offering. Is this something more apparent to people who have been with the WKSA for a longer period or is there something just going over my head? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned


    As I see it, Bruce, there is no particular *benefit* to the school per se. Rather the benefit would be to potential students, that if relocating after getting started with learning this particular MA, that they might be lucky enough to find a school who will work with them to "stay on track" instead of being told they have to "start all over from the beginning" (which is usually the case). Whether a school owner thinks it worthwhile to use this in advertising the *benefits* of enrolling at their establishment, is entirely up to them. But since it doesn't cost anything, I can't see why someone who DOES teach kuk-sool wouldn't bother to enroll. And it's not like you can't abdicate and have your name withdrawn from the list later on, because I've seen names on there one week and gone the next.

    Too bad you don't teach kuk-sool, Bruce, as you'd probably fit right in! :cool:




    FWIW, there could also be some benefit to those who have recently left WKSA, if they are of lower rank and don't happen to have a solid connection to a reputable teacher. I suppose such a person could use the affiliation to try and establish a connection to someone in the hopes of learning more of the curriculum, but understand that this is purely conjecture on my part.
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Unknown, that makes a lot of sense. Certainly there are plenty of people who have grown tired of being "restarted" when what they are looking for is to continue on. Much appreciated.

    BTW: I think I have all but dispaired of finding a place in the KMA and will probably live out my days as a "solitary". Not exactly ".....the voice of one crying in the Wilderness...." as much as a kind of "hermit scholar". ;-)

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Oh! I neglected to mention that once the numbers reach a significant amount, that the KSGA might also try to tackle organizing events for kuk-sool based practitioners.

    I seem to recall a rumor that it was trying to gather support for a small tournament to be held the same weekend as Rudy Timmerman's (aka: Saja) grand event to be held in mid-August of this year (Gathering of the Grandmasters). I also seem to recall a rumor that the attempt fizzled out due to lack of interest. :p

    But I got the impression that stuff like that might be attempted again in the future, with better planning going into it rather than as a last-minute idea thrown into the mix. FWIW.
     
  5. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Greetings Bruce:
    While NKMAA is not a "by invitation" only org, you are correct in that we do NOT actively try to recruit members. The way I run NKMAA is simple. I am there for those who want/need some help in Korean martial arts, and I am assisted by a small number of qualified Masters in various Korean martial arts. I carefully hand pick (this is by invitation only) these Masters from our membership AFTER I have had a good look at their abilities and character.

    We differ from the KSGA in that the latter does not appear to offer training and/or certification, and there is a small cost to become a member of NKMAA. My own school is a member of the KSGA, as I recognize there IS (or can be) a benefit in networking with other Kuk Sool practitioners.

    I also invited my students to check out the KSGA, as I believe THEY could benefit from networking with other martial artists. I run my school and NKMAA based on trust (although this HAS come back to bite me at times), and I encourage my students and NKMAA members to expand their horizons.

    The doors of my school and NKMAA are always open, and people can come or go. If they stay, it is most likely due to the fact I may offer something useful to them. If they go, I am obviously not providing what they seek. IMHO, that means they also won't contribute much, so nothing is lost when they go.

    Bruce... you HAVE visited me, and my door will always remain open to you :) We do not always agree on things, but that does not stand in the way of the bond we have formed over the years... at least not from where I stand.

    You are also keenly aware that I have never asked you to become a member of NKMAA, so you have first hand knowledge that I do not actively recruit people (or make demands of them they can't live with).
    Rudy
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks for your comments, Master Timmerman:

    I always have to pick carefully when mentioning an organization as aspects seem to shift and change over time....sometimes faster and sometimes more slowly. If you have a moment would you be willing to address two questions that seem to come up when your organization is mentioned?

    a.) Could you say something about how the NKMAA relates to the World Kido Association of SEO In Sun?

    b.) Could you say something about the three levels of instruction? I understand there is the KONG SHIN BOP and there is a more generalized sort of "vanilla Hapkido". What is the nature of the third area of instruction? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  7. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Hello Bruce:
    Our relationship with GM Seo and the World Kido Federation is the same as I had mentioned in the earlier post I sent... it has to do with giving members of NKMAA and my personal students more opportunities. I love the Korea trips offered by GM Seo for example. NKMAA does not stifle its members.

    Aside of having qualified Masters in other Korean arts in NKMAA, there are indeed three levels of training I personally offer.

    1. Traditional Kuk Sool as I learned it from WKSA
    2. Kong Shin Bup as I learned it from GM Pak (which includes additional
    forms, weapons, and techniques etc.)
    3. Regular old fashioned HKD without forms

    These three arts are close enough in basic principles as not to interfere with one another. I might add that KSB has VERY demanding fitness and breaking elements that most normal folks shy away from.

    Instead of mixing all these arts up, I teach them as I was taught (with the exception for eliminating stuff like bottle breaks at Kuk Sool blue belt level. IMHO, that is simply too much of a liability).
     
  8. ember

    ember Valued Member

    We didn't done bottle breaks at Kuk Sool blue belt level where and when I was training.

    They did start to teach them at the black belt level, but unfortunately that started while I was pregnant (no breaking), and when I did return to training they just so happened to be the classes that my husband attended :(
     
  9. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Hello Ember:
    The WKSA in the '70s used to have this break at blue belt level; however, it was later changed to higher ranks. This break, although quite impressive for demos, has seen more than a few nasty accidents. I believe KJN White was one of those who had a very nasty cut at one of the WKSA demos in Houston... in fact, it was then that I decided no demo or test was worth having one of my students end up with permanent damage to the hand.

    While Canadians are not as lawsuit happy as our US friends, the possibility of a law suit wiping out my school was also a deciding factor in dropping this from my curriculum. It just was not worth it to me.
    Rudy
     
  10. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member

    Bottle breaking is not that hard to do. I did it as skinny little teenage kid. The risks are definitely not worth the reward.
     
  11. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    KSW... you are quite correct. It is NOT hard to do, and I have done it many times; however, it IS easy enough to have an accident, and I have seen very accomplished Kuk Sool practitioners do just that.

    I realize that just about everything we do has some risk attached to it, and I am not for a minute suggesting we quit doing anything with danger attached to it. If I, as an adult black belt, want to demo bottle breaking, that is my decision. On the other hand, to DEMAND others do this as part of a test is IMHO more than I should ask.

    You are quite correct that the risk is not worth the benefit.
    Rudy
     
  12. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    When I visited the old WKSA HQ back in the 80's I was invited to try the bottle break. Now I am sensible enough to know in my conscious mind - let alone my sub-conscious mind - that the sharpest thing on this earth of ours is... yes, you've guessed it - a shard of glass! So with that in mind, and not without a smidgeon of trepidation, I gave it a go. The fact that they had wrapped it in a newspaper obviously did nothing to calm my innate fears either, as it didn't break. I believe they got a 12-year-old girl to come out and do it for me in the end! ;)

    Is it worth the risk? People like John Watson seem to think so, as he does them all the time. Knowing my luck, however, I prefer to err on the side of extreme caution where breaking glass with my body is concerned. In my youth, I watched a friend swing a punch at someone and he put his hand through a glass window pane. The first two heart beats after that were successful in sending his blood spurting upwards onto a fairly high ceiling.
     
  13. Saja

    Saja Valued Member

    Hello Ollie:
    I hear you. The paper is not for the breaker's protection, it merely is there to keep the glass from spreading all over the place.

    I have not done it, or the thumb breaks, for a while now, but I also used to do them all the time. To complete it successfully is like winning the lottery. Sooner or later, even the best people will get it wrong. With tendons being so delicate, successful surgery to repair them is not guaranteed. To me, that makes it a silly thing to do for the entertainment of others (or our own ego).

    Let's see. You ask your student to put a glass bottle on block of concrete, you tell him to hit the bottle with either the front or the back of the hand, and he must stop the motion of his hand before the soft tissue of his hand grinds into the now shattered glass that sits on top of said concrete. Hmmmm.
     
  14. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I remember that incident, and I believe that GM IHS dropped such breaks from demos then and there (the curriculum had already been altered by then).

    And nothing against master White, but I can explain the mishap perfectly. Wrapping the bottle tightly in newspaper helps to contain the tiny fragments from flying all over the place (you undoubtedly will have BAREFOOT demonstration team members using the same space later, and the ensuing sweeping of the floor always seems to be done hurriedly, which ultimately "misses" some of these tiny fragments). The wrapping will NOT keep a large shard from protruding through and possibly cutting you. Of course, the break looks more spectacular if the bottle remains unwrapped, but then the skill required is much more difficult.

    When wrapped, you can strike with full force all the way down to the supporting slab underneath (typically a concrete cinder block), as any shards which might protrude through the paper usually won't cut you too severely. If unwrapped, there is no protection whatsoever but you still need to compress the glass enough for it to break, the trick being to retract your hand before it comes to rest on the supporting slab (BTW, this second type of break is what master White was doing when the accident occurred). This second, more difficult type of bottle break works best with a short, powerful blow as rearing way back for a hammer-like slap makes it difficult to do the retraction at the very end. Since most of the power in such a blow is generated from the shoulder, the mistake that master White made was to hit the bottle at a slight angle, which allowed it to roll as he was compressing it. This caused the glass to shatter up towards his wrist and forearm, where all the tendons (which allow your hand to do all sorts of contortions) happen to be, as well as the radial and ulnar arteries. As I recall, master White was VERY lucky in that none of these tendons got cut - but it WAS a close call, and initially everyone was in the dark about the severity of this mishap (there WAS a lot of blood spilt IIRC).




    FWIW, I answered this prior to the latest post by Saja, but I'm experiencing internet connectivity problems. :bang:
     
  15. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member

    His break is very impressive though. He holds the bottle in one hand and breaks it with the other, no concrete support. I am not sure if that make it any safer for him.

    Edit: I found these pictures on facebook. http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=146442&id=8873024631
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  16. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    I don't remember ever seeing him break, other than using a block, but there are many variations. One is to stand the bottle upright on a block or a table, etc., put enough water in to come up just below the neck, and then chop the top off with a knife hand strike. Another is hold the neck of the bottle in one hand (with water in up to the neck again) and slap downwards into the mouth with your other hand. The force of the air entering the bottle can be enough to blow the bottom out.

    This video clip describes it: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMcrvjDpCY"]ViewDo: How To Break the Bottom Out of a Bottle - YouTube[/ame]
     
  17. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Don't be confused, the first method mentioned here uses the water to stabilize the bottle. I've also seen this accomplished simply by placing a couple of house bricks around the bottom of the bottle. I've also seen NO water or other support used for this style of break, but then it was broken with a spin kick and the body of the bottle was targeted instead of the neck.

    The second method mentioned is just a party trick (and is stated as such in the video). Almost anyone is capable of pulling it off with no conditioning and very little practice (in other words, it's a classic case of bido-sul).
     
  18. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    No confusion UKKJN, some people try to pass off the second example as being more than a 'party trick'. Try doing it with no water in it and let me know how you get on! Of course the first one is a damn site harder with no water in it too. This fella makes an endurance exercise out of it: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOCiv2xsl0"]Grand Master Lito Concepcion Bottle Breaking - YouTube[/ame]
     
  19. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    you see, thats where i'm confused: i've seen monks palm strike the bottom out of bottles. and not that cheesy stuff where it looks like the bottom fell off. i mean that bottom EXPLODED and it had zero water. i've also seen people throw bottles up and palm strike them with the same effect.

    the same thing with the one inch board punch. i had some advanced students doing that in a corner when one of the beginner students got huffy and said that he could do that easy. he walked over there, tried it, and wound up hurting his hand. no one laughed at him but explained that 90% of the breaks done in ANY martial art has to do with understanding correct body alignment and concentration. meaning, there's a reason he's a beginner.

    there are tricks in the martial arts world (especially with Kyuk Pah), but sometimes people can do the things we only dream about. like throwing a needle into a glass pane or kicking a large bamboo stalk in half.
     
  20. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i heard a story where master suh threw a needle at a wild pig and killed it instantly! talk about pin-point accuracy...
    i understand master timmermans approach to testing. next test we gotta either palm strike mexican coke bottles or reverse palm strike them. the last time i tried i was holding a 52oz. Hite-eu bottle (i was in seoul) by the neck and with my right hand in su-do giving that bottle a chop to remember. it still remembers the chop, because it survived. a tear cascaded down my cheek. i was bruised for two weeks. now i gotta do this? whitesnake song cue in.
    i will try reverse this time as i think using the protruding bone in my ulner wrist/palm will fair better than muscle striking a round glass surface.
     

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