The kata debate 2010

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Knight_Errant, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Captain obvious strikes again!

    Essentially a kata is a form, any form, whether it be a simple punch or throw, or a pattern of movements.

    In the case of the latter, the pattern of movements is not always designed for combat, but rather, like a story, to teach a strategy or lesson.

    Simple kata should be drilled intensively so that they become committed to muscle memory.

    Complex kata should be learned, written down, understood and then forgotten.

    For understanding sake, some examples.

    Example of a simple kata

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY8m9Xx_H6I"]YouTube - Sui no kata. æ°´ ã® ã‹ãŸ[/ame]


    Example of a complex kata

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeKl4GKUFdo"]YouTube - Goho - 5 ways[/ame]


    Note: Simple kata should encompass a single technique or two. Complex kata should not exceed 9 movements (ie. three punches, kick, counter, grab, throw, lock).

    More examples:

    Simple kata

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN-T47_ffvQ&feature=fvw"]YouTube - Hikomi no kata[/ame]

    Complex kata

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48&feature=related"]YouTube - Itsutsu no Kata[/ame]

    (This video is particularly important because it highlights the 'kata as a story' concept very well)


    Sincerely,
     
  2. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Judo kata are not kata. They are pre-set sparring.
    Ninjitsu kata are not kata. They are an abomination unto Allah.
     
  3. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    I agree with that position.

    The most I ever got from katas was a small bit of endurance improvement from doing them fast. Well that and you get to roar loudly and look cool. :D

    Otherwise, I think they are too far removed from either sport fighting or self defence to be useful. I'm not saying get rid of them, but they shouldn't be given a whole lot of importance.
     
  4. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Just proves you don't know what you are talking about.

    Run along now, the adults are talking.
     
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Many of the traditional Japanese arts have two man kata, it's pretty common in most koryu that you have paired kata.

    For example this contains solo kata for iai and then paired kata with bo, naginata and sword:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbTrKhvxRvA&feature=related"]YouTube - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu - Part II | 天真正伝香取神道流[/ame]
     
  6. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    The thing is though, I'm talking about single-man kata. I don't have anything against two man kata, far from it, I just don't think it's helpful to start talking about two man kata when what we are discussing is, explicitly, single man kata.
    Well maybe you should ease up with the 'captain obvious' cracks? Can't take it? Don't dish it out. Not interested in an argument with you either. Now sod off.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  7. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    That is exactly why I went to such great lengths to explain what I define as kata.

    I don't study Karate and I don't know what you do, so it's your responsibility to explain yourself.

    Kata are forms and whether you do it by yourself or with someone else it should be exactly the same. In my experience the majority of partnered kata can be practiced by yourself (ie. going through the motions).
     
  8. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    OK fair enough, it's just I usually think of kata as a one man practice, and that's specifically what I wanted to discuss in this thread.
    To switch sides again:
    I can see the point in the 'fancy' ones, actuallly. I mean, quite a few of the positions are fundamnetally important, and it's a good idea to force yourself to do those things you don't want to do as well as those you do.
     
  9. RagingDelirium

    RagingDelirium Valued Member

    If you think Im fighting thru all 22 pages of this thread (In my current flu state) after having gone through the entire of the TENGAIKIJUTSU thread yesterday!

    My 2cents
    Kata / Forms, etc. are simply a method to ensure that no matter who you train with, if you train in a TMA .... then the kata/forms will teach you the moves and the applications of the moves, timing and breathing patterns etc.

    not to mention forcing a student also practice control over both sides of their body whether they like it or not.

    hopefully kata/forms should always be pushing a student to question why they are doing something

    So if you are seeing them as a simple set of dance moves, then i figure there is a major problem (If that is case maybe visit a different instructor a few times & question him/her as to meaning and application to each of kata forms that you have devoted x amount of time to learning).
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  10. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    Awwwe. Hope you get better soon from the old flu. Flu sucks.
     
  11. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Common misconception. There are other things involved in practicing fighting besides actual full on fights. It's perfectly reasonable to continue sparring until the day you die, barring illness and unhealthy living. Helio Gracie taught a class the morning he died at (i think) 96. There are tons of old catch wrestlers out there too.
     
  12. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Morio Higaonna will turn 72 this year and still spars a few times a week. Not to mention he trains just as hard as a professional fighter (sometimes training up to 6 hours a day).
     
  13. Willsy

    Willsy 'Ello love

    Recently attended his oceania seminar, he is most definitely still not slowing down.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2011
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    OK..... well.... noone else has said it so I might as well be the one. This thread has gone on for 23 pages and I have yet to read where anyone has explained the productive integration of forms into the larger constellation of MA training. Now, why is that?

    I have read where people want to define what a form is and isn't. And there are the usual "yer-fulla-beans" exchanges. Fact is that forms, though getting reasonable press and exposure in only about the last two hundred years, are an integral part of many martial art practices, both Eastern and Western. I guess what I need to know is whether folks are interested in an intelligent examination of the question --or-- is this just another thread to provide a chance for someone to say "...and yo momma" to someone else?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    karate kata: sequences of movements, intended either as combat applications or for technique training of different kinds, and over the years mangled so much by a mix of personal variations, misunderstandings, standardization and intentional alteration that it has resulted in massive abstraction, which has the unexpected side effect of rendering them malleable, making them useful for a variety of purposes.

    some are similar to chi kung in chinese martial arts, and serve, when done correctly, to inculcate correct body-mechanics for the style one does, including posture, alignment for techniques and at least some aspects of power generation, usually related to the previous two items. these can be practiced by themselves, and the actual use of the attributes developed is up to the practitioner, although of course having a teacher qualified to help you with that is always of help, although a few of these forms also double as "application" forms (naihanchi and hangetsu, for example).

    the other kata, again assuming they are practiced correctly (FFS, people, function over form! it's not that difficult ¬_¬), which does not necessarily mean doing the entire kata every single time*, bring benefits through chained basic techniques, by doing them in pre-set ways (again, function over form. even though the movements are abstracted, one should focus on the principles of the techniques, rather than on silly details like whether your off-hand is 1cm out of place. most of those things will change depending on your opponent, anyway), which represent different combat situations, which are pretty much arbitrary but can be reinterpreted given the abstraction level of many sequences and thus generally fitted to other situations, or used as a base to create other basic technique abstractions for other situations.

    in turn, these chained basic techniques, as well as reinforcing the individual basic techniques themselves and their combinations, can then be trained with a partner, which is where application comes in. now, if the techniques are well-trained, giving you a decent grasp of the principles involved, this initially compliant basic partner training** teaches you how those principles feel when applied against other humans, after which you modify whichever part of the movements you were doing wrong, and then feed that back into your solo basics and by extension into your kata, so you can actually keep developing the stuff that actually works instead of just blindly going through the motions***.

    once that ultra-basic stuff is up to scratch for the level each batch of students is in, one can start doing a greater proportion of "free-form" techniques, meaning that you aim for the goal of the technique, not the technique itself (so if the technique works, it works, and refinement is left as a matter of time and accumulated training), and from here you work the techniques off to the other end of the abstraction spectrum, where you stop using specific techniques altogether in your drills and are able to demonstrate good karate in a free-form environment. note that sparring should be completely separate from this process until the latter stages, when the techniques are sufficiently understood that each individual student can start blurring the divide between free-form drills and free-sparring, and as we all know, different kinds of drills such as scenario training should be included on top of all this if the aim is effective self-defense from modern-day physical violence.

    *although if one wishes to break it down one should first understand how the sequences can link together, which can change the end result by changing the possible uses of the movement.

    **note: even though the newbies will usually start out not actively resisting much, so the other person has time to think and learn, i still favor powerful techniques and actual hitting (with consideration of who you're drilling techniques with, of course) even when exchanging basic techniques. can't learn to block right unless you have someone actually trying to hit you, abstract movements or not.

    ***of course, kata can also be done for relaxation and stress relief, or as moving meditation, or whatever, but if you're gonna do them right, do them right :).
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Can I suggest you read Heian Flow System as an example of how Kata can be an integral part of skills training with a Karate curriculum?
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, jwt:

    I have a pretty decent approach to interfacing formwork (K. "HYUNG"; "POOMSE") into the material I teach. Though there are plenty of folks who hold that Hapkido arts ought not have forms, I find that there is much to benefit from in properly using forms as an adjunct to other training venues.

    And thanks for the tip on the book.

    BTW: I don't know if anyone else has noticed but am I the only one who seems to see correlations between what forms people practice and the resulting physique? To me it seems that people who train in form-work after the fashion of SHOREI-RYU seem to have a much greater muscle mass than those who practice the SHORIN-RYU KATA. Again, to me, the SHORIN RYU folks seem to be more of what I would call a "gymnastic" sort of physique. Anyone? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I seem to recall that Gichin Funakoshi made a similar observation, though I think he stated that if you were large you should do Shorei whereas if you were light you should do Shorin.
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    shorei and shorin is an arbitrary distinction that funakoshi did. naha people are generally bigger looking because they train with humongous stone weights, arseloads of calisthenics and a good serving of dynamic tension.

    just compare shinyu gushi, a non-weight user: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2VgxgM4wr8"]YouTube - Extreme Dynamic Tension Sanchin Kata[/ame]

    to kazuo terauchi, who as a member of the IOGKF elite is bound to do a fair amount of hojo-undo: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9iqsfIbwLQ"]YouTube - Sensei Kazuo Terauchi, Sanchin kata[/ame]

    on the other hand, this was gushi when he was around 18 years old, and as seen in the picture, a user of okinawan weights: [​IMG]

    yet masaji taira, another goju stylist, has a slimmer physique: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YdvW1LZdWI&feature=related"]YouTube - Core engagement drills - Taira Masaji Sensei[/ame]

    of course this will depend on body-types, but there are both slim naha/shorei stylists and big-muscled shorin stylists, such as shoshin nagamine: [​IMG]

    or these, who i think are chotoku kyan's students: [​IMG]

    if we move into japanese karate, shotokan also had varied physiques, with people such as enoeda being reportedly quite solidly built, whereas others like kanazawa were whipcord thin in a similar manner to gushi, and then you have exceptional cases like taiji kase: http://www.leicesterkarateclub.co.uk/kase_open_hand.jpg

    all in all, while i agree to a point that kata practice as physical exercise (as well as kihon) will influence your physique, i don't think it has so much to do with which kata you do but rather what other exercise you do on top of it (and to balance it out).
     

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