The kata debate 2010

The time has come to get out the opnions on kata/forms/patters/whatever for an airing, to stop them from choking up other threads.

I'll go first. My opinions have progressed since the last big kata debate. I used to see kata as a bizarre oriental practice with no obvious benefits. Now, however, I am going to argue the following:

1)Almost all martial artists and armies everywhere and throughout human history have used some kind of solo drill, from sword drill in the 19th century British army to the forms of shaolin kung fu. They are not specific to eastern culture, although the form they take may be. They are not mere exercises in discipline. They are specific motions designed to increase combat efficiency.

2)The fact that a motion is designed to increase combat efficiency does not necessarily mean that it is in itself a motion used in combat. The single leg squat, for example, is not a combat motion but it does improve your performance. Many of the motions and positions in kata may simply be designed to improve balance, timing, rhythm, coordination etc.

3)Kata are often compared unfavourably with shadow boxing because kata are 'fixed' and therfore 'dead' and shadowboxing is improvisational and therefore 'alive'. I dispute this view for a number of reasons. Firstly, this means that kata are inclusive in a way that shadow boxing might not necessarily be. The fact that they are set patterns frees the practicioner from the need to think of what he is doing next and concentrate solely on technique, and makes sure that he covers all the material. This does not mean that they are superior to shadow boxing. It makes them a different tool and not necessarily a less valuable one. Which leads me to

4)People often misunderstand the concept of kata. Kata are a japanese cultural artefact, and spring from concepts not widely understood, liked or respected in the west. People tend to think of them as mere scripted shadowboxing. In a sense, they are. But they are also more than this. In japan, kata are apparently a much wider concept. There exist kata for letter writing, for flower arranging, for calligraphy etc. etc. I don't fully understand the concept myself, but it seems they are to be viewed as a distillation, a concentrated, idealised form of the art in question. To dismiss this out of hand seems to me to be ignorant vandalism.

I declare the kata debate open. Arguments end in a submission, knockout or fallacy. Participants are asked to remember that the referees' decision is final. Persons dressed unironically in camoflauge gis, orange gis, birthday suits &c. will be openly mocked and asked to leave.

 

Before we embark on the wonderful journey of kata 2010 we need to get a working definition for kata, because some of the bs I see in other arts is definitely not kata.

Kata, as I have been taught, are a form limited to one or few movements. One punch is a kata, two punches are a kata, three punches are a kata, but 20 punches in 4 directions is a dance and a complete waste of time.

Kata is a functional training tool limited to one movement or a small set of movements designed to teach a principle or idea.

I can't comment on patterns and whatever.

 

Strange. Most people would consider 3 punches to be kihon, not kata. I think we should make the definition the same definition that is generally used and understood, not some weird definition that is specific to certain members of MAP. And that goes for many other threads and words as well.

Besides, I don't agree that 20 punches in 4 directions is a complete waste of time, for the reasons given in my first post.

 

The form/kata/pattern that you learned from your teacher is "fixed". The form/kata/pattern that you train by yourself is "alive". One day I was traing a drill (in SC there is no forms but drills). My teacher walked toward me and said, "This is not the way that you should train." I then asked, "But this is exactly what you had taught me." My teacher then said, "Form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training". That was the best lesson that I have ever learned in my life.

 

You're misrepresenting my stance by quoting out of context. I said that as an example of what other people say. That's an interesting idea, but it's not how kata are usually practiced.

 

SEN principles are in every kata therfore they are not dead. Example in the kata you may be countering a blow to the head. You may deflect it and counter, you may strike into the attack and counter,you may move in and strike while countering. Subtle differences in the "same" technique.

BASIC kata may be written in stone to develope posture flexibility and the trinity of intent body movement and technique as one.

BUT they lead to two man kata and these kata all have kaeshe waza (alternate techniques) that may be used.

The definition of kata as a single person repeating set forms is hardly even the tip of the iceberg.

 

practicing a kata by itself is useless

first you need to learn the kata (duh)

then you need to THINK about the kata

then you can do whatever the <beep> you want; practice the whole form, practice segments, or practice variations of segments of the form. experiment, maybe try out making a little mini-kata of your own with sequences you like.

i'm no where near considering myself at the level to completely vary my kata training (i haven't even defined my core kata well, and there's a couple of advanced ones i still wanna learn, but arguably that's much more traditional than doing a form 1000 times, even with full intent.

the kata themselves are as much about preservation (they preserve the teachings of a lot of dead okinawans) as they are about combat. they contain kihon moves and some non-standardized techniques, which are, like all kihon moves, idealized abstractions of movements, hopefully conserving the movement principles so that they can be worked in isolation. those techniques you then have to work with other people.

kata give you ideas, and a less-boring alternative to endless kihon for developing isolated technique and combinations. if you're smart you can also use them to train footwork.if only done by themselves, it'd be like a boxer training to punch by shadowboxing specific combinations but never training them on the bag, on the pads or with other people.

TRAIN YOUR BUNKAI

WITH PEOPLE

WITH CONTACT

...and world peace

 

That's why I said, "That was the best lesson that I have ever learned in my life", bcause my long fist teacher (I have 2 CMA teachers) had never mentioned that to me.

 

musical kata FTW!!!

 

Don't give anyone ideas. Soon there will be a new show on the TV: "Dancing with the M.A. Stars" :bang:

 

If it is AC DC I'm in.

 

I did help a international dancing group to create a MA dance form. The hardest part in that design is trying to match the beeps for the selected music (music used in the movie "Once upon a time in China"). The funnest part was when all the dancing instructors from that organization tried to learn this form, they all hurt their legs by the "jumping crescent kicks" in the beginner of the form. I assume that the leg muscle used in the "jumping crescent kick" is different from most of the dancing training.

 

Heian "12" to staying alive.

 

No Pink Floyd tunes?

 

That's proper dancing music that is.

Be the right kind of tune to practice the Glasgow kiss to as well. :bang:

 

Well, yeah. But obviously before you can have bunkai, you have to know the kata. And so you have to learn it and execute it competently. Which necessitates a certain amount of plain old-fashioned solo kata practice.

And yet, in karate at least, that's what everybody thinks of as kata, and it is the form kata practice usually takes. It seems a little mendacious to defend kata by shifting the definition of what kata means though. I get the impression that in judo two-man kata are the norm though. Not that we did any when I did judo. I was aware that they existed, but the instructors didn't seem to take them entirely seriously.

 

Have any of you guys ever created any Kata yourself? Care to share some here?

 

I invented one, I call it 'Phoenix rises from the heavens and strikes with razor talons which are made of a very hard steel and can cut anything really well'.

It starts by getting real close to your opponent and then using your forehead to break their face.

 

Only facetiously. It's called taikyokyu kisama and involves a thai-style leg block and roundhouse kick in 6 different directions and a certain amount of mock-pompous, grandiose stepping and effeminate posturing.

 

nope, but i've always been curious about the possibility of making a kata using common MMA techniques :evil: