The Kajukenbo Hui

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Nuck Chorris, Jan 11, 2008.

  1. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    As the language sits right now in the Hui, there is not a promotion in a particular branch of Kajukenbo. Since the Hui is representative of Kajukenbo as a whole the ranking is awarded in "Kajukenbo."

    I firmly believe that Sijo and the heads of the branches reserve the right and sole use of the awarding of rank under their particular branch.

    Great comments from both Jason and Wado ;) Thanks for your input.
  2. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    That's good to know Dan. So one question that still remains in my mind is how you will determine of someone is Kaju or not. I know you said you wanted to do it in a manner similar to Sijo, and thus be inviting. However, that doesn't mean McDojo TKDville is Kaju, even if they ask to be. Will specific standards be set for Hui entrance for non-Kaju legacy people?
  3. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Even though Sijo has the "whateva" spirit and has brought people into HIS art from the outside the Hui will not be taking up that position. I think because it is Sijo's art, he or those he appoints should be the person who makes those choices.

    There is no means by which Non-Kaju people can enter the Hui. So that rules out the idea of Joe TKD joining the Hui or receiving Kaju rank via the Hui. The members of the Hui are currently debating the "What is Kaju" argument in the Hui forum. Obviously, there are those that would say Kaju is 14 forms, 21 punch counters, etc etc. They'd be wrong. Those that say that Kaju must come from one of the 4 branches would also be wrong because the other founders also do Kaju. So then we get into the concepts arguments like "take what works" or "hard training" and there are other arts that evolve their techniques and train hard.

    I am of the opinion that you are Kaju if you descend from one of the founders. Of course that is my opinion and others I am sure will disagree. But, it isn't my sole choice that drives the Hui policy. I can contribute, but it is up to the majority to decide for themselves what is Kajukenbo.
  4. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Well, I guess I still feel that this discussion would be much more productive on a Kajukenbo forum.
    We have a system that is spread out over 20+ countries, with around 100,000 practitioners, and this topic is being discussed here between 5 Kaju people.
    Sigung Dan, if you feel it's really important, this isolated discussion makes no sense.
    The discussion wasn't buried at the Cafe. Since it was for a "black belt" organization, it was put in the black belt section, where over 350 Kajukenbo black belts could discuss the subject. No one showed a interest in discussing the subject, even though it's been viewed over 400 times.
    Take the discussion over to (not the closed HUI section) where you can have a open discussion if front of your peers.
  5. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    The announcement has been made on several boards. The announcement is on the E and has been on for a while. I am happy to discuss the Hui anywhere you like Professor. I am answering the questions here because this is where the questions are being asked.

    The only thing in the Hui section is what we are voting on in this quarter's ballot. Of course, if you would like to partake in that discussion and have a vote, you are welcome to join the Hui. You are also welcome to start your own thread on the E. I'll support any endeavor of yours.
  6. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Sifu, to me, that's still more of a family/tribal concept than a democracy. It's like a tribal council making a decision rather than a vote thrown to the people.

    This is my last post on this forum regarding this subject as I plan on following the advice of my instructor. I'll be glad to participate on the "E" if it goes over there.
  7. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    As SiGung Dan and Professor Bishop have stated, discussion of this nature should be on a private forum, so I've taken it there.
  8. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Professor Bishop, a quick question regarding this...

    Did the moderators neglect to realize that nearly all vocal members of the Hui who could have partook in the discussion have no access to that vast forum for one reason or another?
  9. Lily

    Lily Valued Member

    Outsider opinion: If you can't discuss a topic without all the baggage and need to do it behind closed doors it just makes certain groups look less transparent and seems like a power game and defensive strategy.

    I absolutely respect that within the Ohana and your particular forums, discussions would be conducted at a different level as people know each other, have history etc. We don't need to delve into that in a general MA forum such as MAP. However if something as simple as this thread can cause such outbursts, an outsider like me then forms opinions of the various factions and Kajukenbo as a whole.

    John, I find it interesting that you tried to make it seem like there was 'no interest' in the subject at the KajuCafe when in fact KF just pointed out that those who might want to share their thoughts may not even have access to that particular thread. This gets worse and worse.

    I dispute that statement.

    You seemed to have a problem with someone 'pulling rank' on this thread yet here you are saying you 'defer' to your elders? I'm confused. Which way do you want it?

    From my point of view (outsider), I did not see a hint of this in the OP. The Hui never stated that they were going to give out 9th and 10th dans (grandfather/elder status) to anyone. Again DAnjo, you're creating something from nothing.

    Plus you seem to have missed the whole point of the Hui which is to take as much of the politics out of it so that voting through favouritism, block votes, financial rewards etc. won't influence whether someone is promoted but rather it is based on guidelines agreed upon by the majority of its organisation's members (that is a discussion for Kaju people who have trained and know what they're talking about).
  10. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore


    Lily, you may be an Aussie and like to crapple, but at least you've shown you have reading comprehension. Well done :)
  11. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Sifu James, how are the Cafe moderators suppose to know this, since there is not a member list of HUI members available to people outside of the HUI?
    Since the HUI is supposed to be only "Kajukenbo Black Belts", then they have access to the Black Belt section of the Cafe. If their not Cafe members, they have the ability to join, and have black belt access as long as they are adult black belts.

    I won't discuss here people who have been banned from the Cafe or Black Belt section. Those are decisions made by majority vote of the moderator staff, just as I'm sure the moderator staff of many forums do. Lets just say that in over 5 years, only 3 people have had to be banned.
  12. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    It isn't a problem Professor - really. I don't want anyone to think that the Cafe is some kind of dictatorship of a message board. It isn't. They have specific rules and that is cool. The Hui had appointed me its spokesperson. Since I no longer have access in the BBS on the Cafe, nothing was discussed there.
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    IMHO, I think you are missing the point Lily. The problem is not with the Hui. The problem is with the broad definition of who can be a member of the Hui. The premise as I understand it is to allow all Kajukenbo Ohana to vote on the Hui guidelines for belt ranking. This is very similar to having the United States and England vote on who will be the Prime Minister of Australia because we are all English speaking nations.

    I use this example because you are an Aussie, Lily. How do you want the United States to decide the Prime Minister of Australia as much as allowing Australians to vote for the President of the United States? This is not going to happen.

    When in fact what is really happening is the Hui is like creating a completely new country where all English speaking people can vote on the leaders. Call it the neutral country of Hui.

    To put this in terms of the Kajukenbo family tree, the Hui is creating a totally new branch of Kajukenbo. Rank under the Hui is not transferable to other branches of Kajukenbo... 8th degree professor in the Kajukenbo Hui is not also 8th degree in Kajukenbo Original Method, for example. It is non-transferable. Not any more transferable as getting a black belt in Goju-kai karatedo but instead saying on your rank certificate that you are a black belt in Goju-ryu Okinawan karatedo -- not going to happen.

    My issue with this is in the perceptions of what is going on. The Hui is passing off as "kajukenbo" when I feel that they are really a new branch of kajukenbo and should not be giving out rank to anyone as Kajukenbo... but instead giving rank out as Kajukenbo Hui. You can call it Kajukenbo but the actual rank certificate should not say Kajukenbo, it should say exactly what the rank is for and from... Kajukenbo Hui.

    So the real question in my mind is, what does it take to create a new branch of Kajukenbo?
  14. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Hmmm. You are slightly over-reaching in your analysis. As I wrote earlier what MY opinion was in terms of what is Kajukenbo. However, what my opinion is and what actually makes it through the Hui are two different things. Where my brush is much more broad, others may be more narrow in their opinions. As the argument in the Hui chambers are continuing, it appears as there will be some kind of middle ground that will be met.

    The rank is in Kajukenbo. It won't be a new branch. Also, the current makeup of Kaju doesn't allow for any sort of carrying over of rank between branches. Just because I am a 6th degree under Sijo doesn't mean I have a 6th in WHKD. KSDI promoted me to 6th degree in Kajukenbo. At the same time, I was also promoted to 6th degree in Guangxi Ch'uan Kajukenbo. So Sijo recognized my rank within my own branch, but also as a Kajukenbo partictioner at large. The goal of the Hui is not to promote people within a branch, but to recognize their time and rank in Kajukenbo.

    Hope that clears up any misconceptions.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Since it is Kajukenbo, where on the Kajukenbo family tree does rank from the Hui appear?
  16. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Is there a spot on the family tree that shows the rank? That is a new feature that I didn't know existed.

    edit: I just got off the phone and there is in fact no place on the family tree for rank. The family tree basically just reads who you got your belt from and who you are currently under.
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Okay, rephrase, where on the Kajukenbo family tree does it show who you got your belt from and who you are CURRENTLY under if that belt is from the Hui and you are not under any other organization?

    I thought the Hui was suppose to help those who may be "orphans" in Kajukenbo, so where on the Family Tree do these orphans go if they don't have any other place on the Family Tree?

    Do they get a line directly to Sijo? Or is there a line to them under something else, like a newly created branch called the Hui?

    P.S. I appreciate your patience on all my questions.
  18. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    No. Thanks for supplying the questions. A lot of what has been discussed in this circle and at the E has been used in the more official Hui discussions. There is a lot of good information and ideas out there.

    Right now there is no designation on the tree for Hui members. I don't feel that it would be appropriate for them to appear on the side where people like I have migrated. That is Sijo's choice to put me and others under his direction. It would be wrong for the Hui to make that same assumption.

    I think where the members currently are is fine. Try to keep in mind that there are many members of the Hui who have not removed ties from their coaches. They want to take part in the Hui and become members, but also continue to support their instructors. These people will continue to be awarded rank from their instructors, but at the same time, want to support the idea of the Hui for others who don't have those kinds of opportunities.

    For the others who have left their instructor, it is currently the practice that the student should be listed under their old instructor's lineage - under the broken line to designate a removal of formal ties. I am listed under Alan Reyes' lineage under that broken line. I am also listed under Sijo's section. Since the Hui members aren't UNDER the Hui, but a PART of the Hui, I don't know how that would be represented on the official tree. I also don't know if it needs to be represented.
  19. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I don't think it does. There is already a system in place for listing everyone, no sense in moving them around for no reason.
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Where people fall on the Kajukenbo family tree is of major interest to me for many reasons, but as it pertains to this thread about the Hui, what the family tree shows to me is where they got their belt from.

    I understand there are many people on the tree that have multiple rankings from different instructors and organizations as well as rankings in completely different systems outside of Kajukenbo. These things are not represented on the tree.

    I believe those obtaining rank through the Hui should be represented on the family tree somewhere. What I'm looking at is not the case of a single broken link but what of an instructor who is a broken link that then has students reaching black belt ranks. Where are those students on the family tree?

    For example, Sigung Dan, if you were not listed on the family tree directly to the right under Sijo, but only represented by yourself under Alan Reyes as a broken link... where do your black belt students go on the family tree?

    But maybe these questions just need to be answered in time, the world does not change in a day.

    Thanks again for the replies.

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