The Kajukenbo Hui

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Nuck Chorris, Jan 11, 2008.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    "Like sands in the hour glass, these are the days of our lives." :p

    Does "Kajukenbo black belts" mean Kajukenbo and its official branches only? What of brothers to Kajukenbo such as C.H.A. 3 Kenpo Karate?
  2. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Something that the current members are going to be voting on in this quarter's voting process will be understanding exactly what constitutes a Kajukenbo black belt. A "kajukenbo black belt" is not defined under the bi-laws. My personally feeling is that if you are on the tree and under Sijo or one of the other founders then by rights you are Kajukenbo. I know others would disagree with me on this particular issue, but that is why we have the Hui setup this way. It isn't one person or an elite few who decides. What I think is important and I will be allowed to express my opinions as will every Hui member. In the end, we only get one vote each.

    The topic will be up for debate in the Hui forum next week. Next week is the deadline to submit an item into the agenda. There will be about 3 weeks of debates and then a vote will take place at the end of the month of February.

    You are welcome to participate and I hope others would as well. Just because you are a member of the Hui doesn't mean you are there to seek rank. Most that have joined are also members or have ties to KSDI, KOA, or both. They joined because they think it is a good idea and they want to take part. Nobody has asked for promotion. In fact, I think most just want to be a part of an organization that listens.
  3. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Do you hate because you are afraid Dan?
  4. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    GM Forbach, the head of your lineage, has no problem with our group. Maybe you should call him and tell him that you have a problem so he can listen and possibly you'll change his mind.
  5. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    I just got off the phone with Gary. He will be contacting you in the near future to clear up any misunderstandings you may have about the email he sent to you a while back.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2008
  6. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Sounds good. I kept his email just in case. Even though I sent it to him already, you are free to send him my #.

    In the meantime, maybe you can work on Danjo and his name calling. Last time I checked I am still a ranking member of the Ohana and I don't think that anyone that has ever met me has related me to Stewart Smalley. If he feels like doing that in person that is fine, but my guess is that he, just like many others in the past, would have a different tone.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2008
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Families fight, but in the end we are still family. :love:
  8. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Of course. All the more reason to show a little more respect and compassion. To have an opinion is fine and I am all for it. To express your instructor's opinion is noble as well. To make some personal attacks from behind a keyboard is something else and it is beneath Bishop's lineage.
  9. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Okay, since you are now pulling rank... I'm sorry that I said to a senior that he may become the next Stuart Smalley of Kajukenbo when I wasn't there in person. If you want a Kajukenbo organization that is known for listening to it's members, then you have a right to do so without being told that it might make you into a Stuart Smalley. I appologize for any perceived disrespect or hurt feelings.
  10. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Was Bishop behind you twisting your free arm as you typed that?

    This has nothing to do with pulling rank. It has to do with common courtesy and knowing who I am. If you and James have the kind of rapport where you can comment back and forth and call each other names that is fine and I don't care. I am not James and I don't know you. Even though you have only a few years in Kaju, I respect that your instructor values you opinion. That is enough for me.

    I hope that you will continue to provide constructive criticism to this project. The idea here is to exchange opinions freely without fear of reprimand or ridicule. Part of the problem is that we don't really listen to what our other family members have to say. I do want to hear constructive opinions. Personal attacks just drive us all apart.
  11. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Only the devout and pure may attain salvation...

    This reminds me of the Supreme Court debating the Constitution....while the founding father's are still alive :rolleyes:
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    "maybe you can work on Danjo and his name calling. Last time I checked I am still a ranking member of the Ohana" + "This has nothing to do with pulling rank." = ????

    But that aside, when it comes to people who are senior to me in rank (regardless of what that may be in, i.e., family, work, Kajukenbo etc.) I tend to let them set the tone. If they want things to be formal and respectful, then no problem. If they are loose and juvenile, ok by me too. I'll respond in kind. there are administrators at my work that address me as "Mister Weston" and expect to be addressed as "Mister___" by me. No problem. There are those that call me Dan, and I call them by their first name also. But I always let them set the tone.

    Including your last post where you lead with a smartass remark, I don't think that it would take people very long to go back through the threads on the various forums and find you being just as big of a smartass to me as I have been to you. If you had come on here addressing me as "Sibak" or whatever, then I would have kept it formal too and gone with the "Sigung" thing also. You as the senior set the level of discourse.

    But I won't be mocked and ridiculed by someone and then turn around and treat them with reverence. Respect is a two way street. You act like a respectful senior, and I'll be more than happy to treat you that way. You don't mock the entire Ohana and make Gary Brewer a GM, create the whole "Pupule" thing, mock Sijo's award of Instructor of the Year from Kung Fu Illustrated, Talk about how the GMs etc. get rank due to who they know rather than merit etc., and then come around telling me I'm being disrespectful of your rank and expect me to take you seriously.

    You say that you want constructive criticism, but I think that you only want validation for doing what you're doing. Sorry, but a democracy in Kajukenbo, calling anyone Kajukenbo because they have some remote connection via some instructor's instructor's instructor who took a few months of it back in the early 1960's, promoting people to rank higher than your own via a vote etc. etc. isn't something that I find appealing.

    Contrary to the opinions of Australian BJJ newbies, I'm not arguing for a "pure" art of Kajukenbo. There may be a lot of things that are Kajukenbo, but there's also a lot of things that aren't. It seems to me that you are saying that Kajukenbo is anything you want it to be because you say so. Sorry if I'm not on board with that.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
  13. Lily

    Lily Valued Member

    Meltdown alert!!! :rolleyes:

    Is this really how Ohana go about discussing things (eg. bringing up things from the past, mocking each other, inability to conduct a conversation about the topic of THIS thread etc.)?

    As far as an 'outsider' like me is concerned, the thread about the Hui was started and YOU DAnjo set the tone with your 'phooey/screwy' comment. So lets not be calling the kettle black.

    Nowhere in this thread have I seen Nuck or KF ask you to 'revere' them so where are you getting that crap from? You have really bad comprehension skills. The leaps of logic you take are astounding and sickening all at once.

    You really seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder that we might need a whole thread to analyse. At times you are rational and I've even learnt from some of your posts in various threads but as soon as you let your emotion cloud you, you become irrational and shoot your mouth off. Relax dude.
  14. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I gotta run out to work right now, but Dan(jo) I see where you're coming from, and I'll comment further when I get back. Though I really would like to discuss what "is" or "isn't" Kajukenbo. I recently had such a discussion with Sifu Goldsmith as well as SiGung Dan of course, and I'd like to get your thoughts.

    Just try to relax. Teh internet is of course serious business :D
  15. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Her opinion matters a great deal Dan. Someone from outside doesn't carry the baggage that the rest of us do. If you see it one way and I see it another that is because there is a personal bias based on past discussions or whatever. Lily and people like her carry less of a bias and call things for what they see them as without thinking of the politics first. She may not be part of the family, but as an outsider looking in, her views are not surprising based on our conversation. I have to wonder what kind of damage your personal attacks have done to the art's reputation. At the very least, your instructor's reputation.

    On other more private boards I have been more willing to speak from my heart. I have been very brazen and at times I have thumbed my nose at the higher ranks. Most of these people I have known since I was 8 years old and they know the context in which the ribbing is being delivered. Of course there are those times when feelings get pushed out of shape. But it is all in the privacy of our Ohana. At the end of the day they just say "It's Danny being Danny again." In this context you forget what forum you are on. I have made the same mistake on this board in the past and your instructor wisely told us both that airing dirty laundry in public isn't the best way of doing things. I am trying to keep it cordial here. On other private boards where just the Ohana are watching then we can say things differently. There we are among friends and family.

    I do want critique. That is why I put it out on this neutral board. If all I wanted was support I would have only posted it on I have gotten a lot of good feedback from members here. Feedback that has made me think of possible loopholes to the ranking and admission system currently in place. You can disagree with the idea of a democracy and that is your right.

    edit: was that a deletion or is the server dropping posts?
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
  16. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    It was a deletion. Sometimes I get too childish even for myself.

    As to the rest, you started this political thread on a non-Kajukenbo forum bemoaning the injustices that you have seen in the Kajukenbo world and your proposal to save the Ohana from itself. Rather than let it go uncontested and thus letting the outsiders think that yours is the only point of view, I've posted here. Most people of significance in the Ohana won't lower themselves to fight in public forums. However, since I'm not that significant, and since I've been fighting on forums for years, I've had no problem doing so.

    Is it distasteful? Yes. But then, you probably shouldn't have posted this stuff on here in the first place IMO.

    The martial arts aren't a democracy. They were never meant to be. They are like a family where there are elders and heads of households. It's patriarchal by design where the elders are deferred to. Everyone from the great grandfather on down to the older brother of a particular nuclear family unit. You don't look around and just say, "Hey, I don't like this family way of organizing things! I want to vote on who the grandfathers and uncles should be!"
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
  17. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    To get back to the OP, and the question at hand (does democracy work in a martial arts organization), I think that it can, but it completely depends on the type of democracy. Personally, I feel a truly free democracy like the Hui won't work very well. With it will eventually come all the political meanderings of democracy, and rank will be come diluted as people get promoted for political reasons, due to various "voting block" agendas.

    However, I completely agree that rank should be given out by committee, with clear standards, and not simply by a single instructor. I look towards the academic model of a PhD as an example, where you have an adviser who teachers you, but in the end, you get your PhD as a result of a committee decision (a democratic vote). In the end, it's still your seniors who are voting on your "rank" but there is less chance for corruption because it's a committee decision. Also, there is no undo influencing by people who want rank (in this analogy, a horde of undergrads all joining to vote, and the mutually voting each other up to a PhD).

    In a larger context, one question I think that needs to be addressed is what is Kaju? I talked with KF about this a bit, and as I said to him, it seems to be a tough question. On the one hand, Kaju is an attitude and view on training. As I semi-jokingly put it, it's about hard contact, multiple ranges, aliveness, and ball shots. On the other hand, anyone who has those things isn't automatically Kaju. If Lily (for example) did all those things, but never worked with a a Kaju practitioner, I wouldn't say she is Kaju.

    In WHKD, we solved this problem by having a set curriculum (that is constantly revised, mind you) that all students must know. Black belt tests are done by committee, so if you didn't teach your student that curriculum through brown sash, they can't pass their black belt test. Mind you, this method isn't perfect, as the curriculum is harder to revise than one would like, but it does keep good standards and allows the art to progress over time (it's also fairly academic in nature).

    My question about the Hui is besides time requirements, what are the curriculum requirements for each rank, and furthermore, how do you determine if someone is "Kaju enough" to join?
  18. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Dan: Thanks for your input. I posted here because it is neutral ground. The post on the Cafe got buried in a place where I can't respond. The E is my territory. Here on MAP the concept can get fair play. I tried to keep the tone positive and tried not to compare the Hui to the other organizations. Remember, the goal is not to take away from the other organizations. The goal is to fill a void where there is no coverage.

    Thanks Jason for pulling us from the flames ;)

    The concept of "what is Kaju" will vary from person to person. Some will focus on the techniques, others on the attitude, and others on the lineage. It is safe to say that there is no consensus for rank or what determines Kaju (other than say WHKD and Tum Pai which have kept tight restraints on growth and curriculum.) To steal James' expression, Sijo has left the barn door open in regards to the Ch'uan Fa and Original Method branches - which I think is a good thing. Then you also have another radical which is the other founders being Kajukenbo as well. Holck has at seminars said what he is teaching is Kajukenbo when obviously it doesn't fit into the "branch" mold. Then another radical is when Sijo pulls someone in from outside (one example would be GM Griffin) and then says what they do is Kajukenbo. Of course that is Sijo and it is his art and he can do what he wants etc etc. But it further clouds the answer of "what is Kaju?"

    This question is up for debate in the Hui forum at the moment. My personal belief is that the Hui should act as Sijo acts. Sijo has always taken a "whateva" approach and has had a more broad interpretation on what Kajukenbo is. Of course, I am just one piece of the Hui and I do not make the choices. Collectively we can come up with a common ground and hopefully determine for the Hui what is the right path.
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sifu Jason, what you said listed some of the same concerns I have for the HUI.

    I was thinking also that the HUI might be trying to cover too much to be of any good. What I mean is that they are to vote on the requirements for rank, but even among Kajukenbo you have many methods that don't all study the same techniques or even the same techniques the same way. Forms are also differently done. And how do you test "attitude" without hands on training and person to person interaction?

    Perhaps the HUI could have different sets of requirements for different branches and therefore on the rank certificates it clearly states what the rank is for. For instance separate ranking/requirements for kenpo-karate and separate for Kajukenbo. There would be no way for anyone to get rank in kajukenbo for instance unless they were from one of the four approved by Sijo branches of kajukenbo. And you couldn't just have someone cross rank you into one of those branches, you would have to meet all the other requirements too.

    Just some thoughts.
  20. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Those are some good thoughts Wado. I can't speak for the other branches, but in regards to WHKD, it would be completely opposed to the Hui giving out rank in WHKD. So I am a bit concerned about what you mean about "different requirements for different branches." Now, if we are speaking more along the lines of the wide variety of methods and offshoots within the hard style (and to lesser extent) chuan fa branches, then I completely agree, and I think your suggestion would help the Hui a lot.

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