The Kajukenbo Hui

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Nuck Chorris, Jan 11, 2008.

  1. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Actually, I didn't mean them. I hope you are right.

    Maybe not, but it sure has folks thinking about it. Again, I'm sure they hope that they will have no reason to exist, because all will be cool. Like little fonzies.

    Matt
     
  2. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Dan, I'd like to keep the respectful tone here being that it is neutral ground. If you feel like calling the other founding members of the Hui names I'll be happy to give you their contact information and you can call them whatever names you like.

    I think this is a nice forum for a debate. Everyone here has respect for rank and at the same time respect for reason. I think there is a topic about the Hui in the back doors of the Kajukenbo Cafe, but since I have been removed from that access, then I can not say for sure what is being said or not being said in said thread - as much as I would like to respond to direct questions. The thread on Emperado.com is not something that Dan or Bishop feel like posting on. That's fine too.

    If you guys have specific questions; you are welcome to ask and I will try to answer them. To go out throwing rhetoric and politics in everyone's face is fine too, but I don't feel like responding to that kind of thinking because it really isn't going to get us anywhere.
     
  3. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Matt. You are a very smart person. Thank you for your time and attention to the issues at hand. Extended family or no, you are welcome in my house.
     
  4. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, if you'd like to list the members names, that should make for interesting reading.

    You were the one that started the thread on this forum, so I figure it's as good as any to get into. As you said, this forum is neutral unlike the Cafe' or Emperado.com. I'm hardly the one that started out with rhetoric if you look at your posts above talking about how emotional you are about taking in orphans that can't get rank from their old instructors, but I can stop it and just get to some simple questions for the sake of peace.

    1) Who are the Board Members of Hui?

    2) Who gave Hui the ability to promote anyone to 8th degree or higher?

    3) Did the creation of Hui have anything to do with the fact that Sijo said he was not promoting anyone anymore and it thus left you without anyone to further promote you aside from the KSDI BOA since you are directly under him?

    4) Since Sijo has stated how he wants members of KSDI to get promoted, are the Hui members no longer in KSDI?
     
  5. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    To answer your questions:

    1. There are no board members of the Hui. There are just members. I am updating the website Friday to include a member listing. This will include all the new applicants who have gone through the background check and have approved of their names being listed on the website.

    2. The Hui is based on democratic principles of self-governance (see United States Government.) The people select a standard by which rank is to be attained. This concept is somewhat foreign to Kajukenbo but not other arts. The Hui vs the makeup of the other organizations would be the difference between a democratic country and an oligarchy.

    3. To say that the Hui was my idea would be an overstatement. Even though you bring up a good point; you are incorrect on what Sijo had stated. Sijo made it clear that the KSDI BOA will only promote 8th and 9th degrees. Therefore the BOA would not have the authority to promote me or anyone else 6th degree and under in KSDI. Back to the question: No. The Hui was actually created before Sijo's announcement.

    4. Sijo has stated how he would like the KSDI members to be promoted to the rank of 8th and 9th degree. He has said nothing of non KSDI members. I will continue to support KSDI and continue to send Sijo tribute (as every Kajukenbo school should do but most don't.) If Sijo feels that he no longer wishes to have us support KSDI, he can tear up the check or put return to sender on the envelope.

    As I stated in my original news release, the people that are outside of the fold are not KSDI, not KOA, not KAA, etc. They should be brought back into the fold, but I don't see the other organizations actively or even passively offering a system by which to recognize the efforts of these people.
     
  6. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    well glad you beat me to the response Dan...put it way better than I could have.

    Anyway, Danjo, Professor Bishop does know he can speak for himself right? haha. Angel Garcia reference....I love it!
     
  7. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Why? If they are not attached to an instructor, there might be a good reason for it.

    You keep speaking of democracy in the martial arts, but since when is this the way that the martial arts have been run?

    You still avoided my question on who gave Hui the authority to promote to 8th or higher.

    Sijo said he wasn't promoting anyone anymore. So who's your instructor that will promote you to 7th if not the BOA?
     
  8. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    I will take a few "case by case" instances of people that represent Kaju's ability, but for whatever reason have been removed or removed themselves from their instructor:

    Bettencourt - status currently unknown
    Terrezas - status currently independent
    Sims - status currently under Sijo
    Tyrrell - status currently under Sijo

    I am sure there are more Dan. All 5 of us (I include mom in under Tyrrell) had either left or been removed from our original instructor. I had mentioned this before, but you have the luxury of being under a relatively even handed instructor. So you probably don't see the need for what the Hui is offering. "Let them eat cake" seems to come to mind.

    To answer your second question (which seems like more of an attack than a question): Just because something isn't done doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. We'd still be rubbing sticks together trying to make fire if that logic controlled progress.

    I also didn't avoid your question in regards to promotion of 8th and above. I stated that the members of the Hui dictated what the criteria are for the promotions. The members have given the authority to promote.

    The last question should be directed towards the KSDI BOA or Sijo unless you are asking me personally.
     
  9. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Okay. You answered the questions straight up, so I have nothing left to ask about it. All that's left are my opinions and only James cares about those.
     
  10. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Well, I and many other of my peers think it would be more beneficial to have a organization that would put "orphans" together with qualified instructors, so that they could continue their training. Then ranking could be done by someone who has actually taught and observed the students progress, efforts, and abilities.
    Something about taking the instructor/student relationship out of the martial arts just sounds wrong.
     
  11. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    So Sijo's promotion of me was wrong?
     
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    How is Sijo, as the head of the system, making exceptions for individuals the same thing as an organization who's whole purpose is to do this on a large scale? You're generalizing from a particular and saying that because Sijo did this in your case, it's ok for you do do it for anyone you like.
     
  13. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Sijo, more than anyone else, shows us what he wants through his actions.

    His benevolence has retained more Kajukenbo black belts within the Ohana than any other grand master or organization. When someone has a falling out or loses his/her instructor...Sijo is there to say "Whateva" and he brings the wayward back into the fold. He doesn't look at the political fallout. He just does what a father should do. He accepts all of his children.

    Professor Bishop is well liked in the community. People would most certainly believe his side over yours in any case. Chances are there would be few that would take you in unless they wanted for to get at Professor Bishop for some reason. That's politics. Sijo would take you in regardless. Now that he is no longer doing so...where would you go? To KSDI? To KOA? To KAA? Which organization represents Sijo's benevolent spirit? Which organization represents Sijo's non-political stance? Which organization will turn to you, open its arms, and just welcome you in because you are a son or daughter of Kajukenbo?

    No, it isn't me acting on my own. The Hui decide what criteria is set. If they want to change the criteria, they may do so. I don't act for Sijo. We act as Sijo has acted.
     
  14. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I don't think he wants everyone to act as if they are the head of the system just because he does.
     
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Nope, I'd be gone from Kajukenbo if Prof. Bishop and I had a falling out and no one else wanted me. I wouldn't scrounge around for a group that would take me despite my instructor and everyone else telling me to get lost.

    But see, I don't think that will happen. I'm not a petulant child who thinks he knows better than his instructor or thinks that his instructor isn't to be given respect even if he did disagree with him. It's called knowing your place.

    If I wanted a democracy where everyone votes then I'd start my own system, not just my own group.

    But we've had this Old School versus New School debate before haven't we?
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2008
  16. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    You bet I do :D
     
  17. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    A few points...

    First of all, the idea of the Hui promoting people is something that isn't to be taken lightly, just winging out belts left and right. If someone is under an instructor, they will continue to be ranked under that instructor, even if both are Hui members. I will never seek a belt through the Hui organization as long as I am under Dan...in fact considering I really don't give much a damn about belts, I probably won't be seeking rank through him or the organization. The notion of the organization giving rank is something that should be done when no other option through a current instructor is available.

    Secondly, (and I do not speak for Dan on this, just me) I feel that any Hui members that are also a part of the KSDI should honor Sijo's wishes to be promoted by the BOA when trying to attain 8th or 9th dan. I don't wish to pressure anyone into feeling that is their only choice, but the man appointed such a counsel for a reason, and it seems like a more logical way to go. But then again, the board -as well as the KOA counsel- is just another organization that has no direct training with the would-be promoted, as Professor Bishop has stated he feared of the Hui's legitimacy. At least with the Hui, there are set guidelines for earning rank, and not just looking for a handout from whoever likes you at the moment. Regardless though, as I stated, the BOA should be the first outlet one seeks for those upper echelon ranks, out of respect for Sijo.

    And lastly this BS about people who leave their instructors being "petulant" and "disrespectful." If it came from anyone else, I'd just ignore it, but I know you know better Danjo. Regardless of style or system, when I hear someone had a falling out with their instructor I am nearly certain that it is the fault of the instructor/higher rank, whether it be for teaching BS, greed, or simply your run of the mill power trip.
     
  18. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Glad you're nearly certain. I don't know anyone's situation unless they've told me, but just like you said on another forum and thread, there's two sides to every story.
     
  19. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    And as you said on another thread, please don't use logic when arguing with me ;)

    But you do bring up many good points, and these are things that should be discussed out in the open to clear the air about anyone opinions or misconceptions.
     
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Just playing the devils advocate, but what would happen if a person joined the Hui and had one hundred black belts under them? Would all of them get to join the Hui and vote? Could someone control the majority of the vote and get promoted to 10th degree? :confused:
     

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