The (Hopefully) Once-And-For-All Steroid Discussion

Well, apart from seeing him use muscle building powders comaboy I saw myself the way his temper changed. Also, there is a difference between a "nice gain" as you describe it and someone having muscles at 17 where the veines are on the surface. I've never seen someone with such an unnatural upper body than this guy.

Concerning accusing him of using steroids, I never did. In fact, I left him alone to do his own thing although I knew what the bad effects of using it could be. Even though I find it incredibly irresponsible to be using it at such an early age when your muscles are still in development.

Christian

 

Maverick,
Just curious if you conveniently dodged this question or you genuinely missed responding to it?

 

Just curious if you have anything constructive to add to this debate other than petulant trolling? Because even you know how stupid that question is. Do I 'know more' about what? Steroids? Yes, quite obviously. And what exactly is every major sporting organisation right about? That steroids are illegal? That they give an 'unfair' advantage in competition? This has nothing to do with the thread. Try and keep up.

 

Now don't get you knickers in a twist - someone might think you are yourself a victim of roid rage.

I'm curious - so you figure you know more with a highschool diploma than someone with an advanced degree in pharmacology?

 

formal qualifications do not always signify knowledge. i should know, i have a few and am as daft as a brush

 

yeah in your case I see your point. Sad but true.

Some of what I've seen on this thread appears much like pharma-junkies picking up a copy of the Mercks manual and figuring that by referring to it they're qualified to dispense sound advice and prescriptions.
Which is obviously not the case.

 

OK let an old guy tell you the truth (BTW I am 39. I hope I am still young ):


Strength & Honour.

Cheats die young!






I thought like this all the way since I started training back in 1984.


In addition:

A speaker of falsehood reaches purgatory; and again so does one who, having done a misdeed, says, "I did not." Both of them, men of base deeds, become equal in the other world (Dhammapada 306).



DC.

 

Yes I had even people yelling at me in the street: Bloody steroid user!

Very sad. And all I did is:

1. TRAIN HARD BUT SMART (ABBREVIATED TRAINING)
2. EAT LIKE A HOG
3. SLEEP LIKE A LOG


:cry:


People still think I am juiced up.

That's is sooo! funny, a Buddhist accused of taking drugs.


DC.

 

You're a gladiator?

 

YES!

A modern one. Siddharta was a Gladiator as well. Of another kind though But he belonged to a clan of warriors, anyway.


DC.

 

my brain hurts

 

Guess what else will destroy your liver?
http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=856&action=print

Everything will kill you, some things will kill you faster than others. As long as people are informed of the risks then I see no problem with steroid use. No one is saying that steroids are risk free here. But managed steroid use with proper precautions is not going to kill you, it probably won't even shorten your lifespan. It is possible to use steroids safely. If it weren't possible to do so then they wouldn't be prescribed for any kind of ailment. Does this mean anyone is recommending that all 13 year old kids start juicing up? No! But if you're 18+ and choose to add steroids to your weightlifting routine then you're a supposedly informed adult who can make your own decisions.

Kintanon

 

Education in one area does not always equate to knowledge in another area. Pharmaceutical science is a very broad term. Unless AAS dosage, usage, testing, etc, etc. was a part of the curriculum, that education alone does not make that person an authority on aas.

 

Just thought I'ld throw in my 2c here.

Messing with your endocrine system is dodgey territory, and it's really best done under medical supervision. That goes for estrogen too BTW, the pill is taken in certain approved doses and timeframes - there's a reason why you're supposed to take the morning after pill no more than a handful of times in your life, the dosing is too high and it can start to cause irreversible changes.

Same with testosterone, I can see how the uneducated demonisation of steroids might be hindering safe use, but I think bodybuilders and athletes have alot to answer for in that regard for abusing steroids to such an extent. And at the end of the day, messing with your hormones is not something I would advocate doing yourself, or under the supervision of some 'big bloke' down the gym. A normal/high-normal testosterone level can help keep you strong, fit, healthy etc. and if mine ever dips low in later life I would certaintly consider getting it extraneously, but I would go through the proper/legal channels.

The flip side is the demonisation of steroids, and unwillingness to debate about their use & effects. The same thing was the normal approach to recreational drug use when I was in school and IMO it's a bad idea. People would take some light drugs, find out that they didn't make you drop dead, go into a coma, balls fall off, whatever, and realise that they had been basically lied to. This led to the dangerous deductive jump where they would start to think that EVERY bit of official info they had been given about drugs was wrong and that the medical community/goverment/society didn't have a clue about the realities of recreational drug use. That opened the way (in their heads) to taking much stronger stuff. The truth is that drug taking is not a good idea, but people need to be told the realities involved instead of dramatic scare tactics, and fortunately that is increasingly the direction being taken by the health information authorities.

The same thing applies with steroids & all sports supplements. If you start telling people that creatine makes your genitalia shrink, or stops your heart, or that steroids WILL make you bald, give you moobs, go nuts, get achne, etc. then you'll instantly have lost their confidence once they are exposed to users who aren't experinecing these side effects. Give people the REAL facts, as best you know them, and let them make up their own mind.

Sorry, that was a bit longer than intended...

 

Androgenic/anabolic steroids are prescribed? I think you're talking about corticosteroids mate, completely different.

 

Well as our personal definitions of 'sensible steroid dose' seem to greatly differ, I will take 'sensible dose' to be anything below the maximum prescribed dose for each substance.

I could list them all for you, but I just can't be bothered to type vast amounts of max doses...

Anyway I think we have already established that many abusers take up to, and beyond 20 times the maximum recommended dosage of some steroids.

As for people dropping dead, there are many..

Anabolic steroid use is widespread and has been associated with a variety of pathological conditions. The subject of this case is a 20-year-old amateur bodybuilder who died of sudden cardiopulmonary arrest. He had no previous medical complaints but had a history of anabolic steroid abuse and a hypertrophic heart (515 g) at autopsy. This case presentation will discuss the cardiovascular effects of these drugs and the possible impact of long-term abuse.

Publication Types:

* Case Reports


PMID: 7728810 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



A 20-year-old body-builder died from pulmonary embolism. The diagnosis was delayed because he concealed long-term taking of anabolic steroids.

Publication Types:

* Case Reports


PMID: 2075740 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


A 28 year-old bodybuilder died of myocardial infarction, caused by coronary atheroslerosis. Other autopsy findings were fibrosis interstitialis myocardii and endocardii. The increased atheromatosis in this patient may have progressed because of use of anabolic steroids in combination with an protein-rich diet containing 2-3 g cholesterol daily. The patient ignored the heart-related warning signals throughout several months. The reason for this could be the mental changes caused by the anabolic steroids. Therefore, patients taking anabolic steroids need increased attention.

* Case Reports

PMID: 2008749 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Oh and I forgot to mention CJD

In 1996, the first case of vCJD in France (indeed the first known human case outside the United Kingdom) occurred in a bodybuilder, and it was thought that this might have been acquired through the deceased having injected themselves with bovine somatotrophin contaminated with BSE (2). British Medical Journal Jan 2001

Interesting article from the British Society for Neuroendicrinology

http://neuroendo.org.uk/index.php/content/view/66/11/

Medical Journal of Australia.. I don't want accusations of Eurocentrism

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/aug19/corrigan/corrigan.html

Now if you want some seriously in depth clinical studies I can access the clinical database at work?

Um, they're hardly gonna show off their shrunken genitals now are they?

All of the above are side effects that can occur & are well researched in legitimate medical circles. Anecdotal evidence by 'Roid Boys' doesn't constitute facts for me.

It seems to me that the real facts are largely ignored by abusers.

Anyway I'm bored of this now, I must go and admire my large testicles

 

I'm gonna follow RedSandPalm's lead and put in my two cents. I don't know especially much about steriods, but my understanding can be summed up in the following:

-most anabolic steroids are basically testosterone. However, just because testosterone is natural it is not necessarily safe, especially in large doses. Arsenic is natural. Even Vitamin A in a high concentration can kill you (polarbear liver anyone?).
-steriods allow you to train harder and recover faster, increasing your potential as an athlete.
-steriods are a drug, usually an IV drug, and as such carry specific risks associated with the type of steroid and the method of use (injection, etc)
-Risks can be reduced and possibly managed by an educated user. Sometimes risks are only found out 'after the fact' (death, illness/injury, etc).


I don't think that anyone here can argue with any of the above. If the question is whether or not one should use steroids, I think that people should not use steroids unless they are properly issued by a doctor. If the question is whether or not we should read T-Nation, I think we should read T-nation. Like many people have said- talking about crime is discussion, nothing more.

 

Great post!

The scare tactics used in the 60-80's had become a joke to the kids of my generation. People figured if they're lying to me about this; then I wonder what else are they lying about. It backfired horribly and ended up destroying the lives on many people in the process. I'd have hoped the powers that be would have figured this out by now.

The insidious part is that most drugs of any sort will not show their side effects until it's too late to reverse the damage. You probably won't become psychotic and kill someone after using steroids for a month, nor will your liver explode killing people in a ten foot radius BUT sometime within the next two decades of your life I guarantee you will regret using them (and that goes for all controlled substances). There is always a price to pay, best be sure you are ready to pay it.

As far as messing with the endocrine system, even our best and brightest have a crap understanding of it, I don't even trust physicians to mess with it. I made the mistake of being talked into trying a treatment plan not knowing what I was taking; it won't happen again, my endocrine system is off limits (heavy emphasis on the period/full stop).

 

One thing I always think about when discussing steroids is heart hypertrophy. Left ventricular hypertrophy is becoming increasingly recognised as a major, major factor in heart disease and I can't help thinking that steroid usage won't exactly help the situation. Look at Mike Mentzer - died of heart disease which is found in his family, but obviously not helped by the roids.

 

When you start to mess with your bodily systems yourself, you're playing with something you're not supposed to be (in my view). When you screw with one body system, more often times than not, you're going to, in some way, shape, or form, throw off some, if not all of them.

With that said, I personally could care less if someone else wants to use them or endorse them. They want to experiment, be my guest! It ain't my body you're messing with, so go to town. Just the side effect of my cojones shrinking turns me away from 'roids anyways...lol!

As far as writing off T-nation for even discussing AASs (not necessarily endorsing them, but having intelligent discussions), I believe that is ridiculous. It's a good site with tons of free info from some, IMO, good strength coaches that have their heads on relatively straight (some are eccentric....but hey!). Sheltering kids from stuff only makes them want to do it more (I'm 17...I know this to be a fact with myself.... ).

That's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth I suppose!