The (Hopefully) Once-And-For-All Steroid Discussion

Obviously they didn't teach you much about AAS in that diploma, and why would they.

I know of enough sensible users of AAS to know that if this does happen, there's more chance of you getting hit by a meteor.

Yes if you wouldn't mind stopping using the term 'steroid' and applying every possible side effect to it, that'd be great. For example some steroids do not aromatise so will not give gynecomastia, and some are almost completely non-toxic to the liver. Some are almost completely anabolic while others are more androgenic like trenbolone and will have a pronounced affect on sufferers of male pattern baldness.

and also many years of properly researched medical data .

You're kidding yourself if you believe bodybuilders are the only people who take AAS as well.

Now you are just being ludicrous. Limitless evidence?

Anyway, yeah. I still think you don't know what you're talking about and don't know a single person who uses AAS.

 

errmm... Maverick he's posted valid articles from credible sources...
What have you posted besides what appears to be steroid cheerleading?

 

So since the use of performance enhancing anabolic steroids are by and large illegal in sports and for MAP's purposes they are considered illegal drugs then what your saying is you'd be in violation of the TOS.

 

Shrivelled nuts anyone? Male breasts?

I'll ignore your blatent insults regarding my education.

Please could you elucidate on your medical expertise.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Anyway, yeah. Thankfully I don't know any spotty, moonfaced, aggresive meatheads with tiny testicles, I don't know any heroin injectors either. Mind you I know a few potheads and coke users.

Lets keep it to facts shall we?

C'mon let's have some of that evidence that suggests anabolic steroids are harmless. Where is it? Again, where is your clinical evidence?

And for the second time, I am quite aware that bodybuilders are not the only people to abuse steroids, they are just the most extreme example.

Enjoy your time in hospital in 20 years time :love: and hey if you want erectile disfunction and tiny testicles by abusing illegal substances in the meantime, it's your choice. I hope it's all worth it.

I still find the whole scene a bit wierd to say the least.

 

A study demonstrating the use of a cycle of 600mg test enanthate without any adverse long term effects, did you miss it? :love:

I know what a steroid is. I doubt you've ever even seen an amp of test.

Yes mate that much is obvious

I never said they are harmless? Nothing is harmless.

Erectile dysfunction? lol. Again you clearly don't know a single person who's used AAS. Deca most notably has the potential to make you limp but most test esters can make you horny as a teenager.

Possibly because you don't know anything about it and are re-gurgitating almost evangelistic hyperbole?

Perhaps you should go on t-nation and call every AAS user a spotty, moon-faced aggressive meathead with tiny testicles. and get laughed off the face of the internet for being so ignorant.

 

Could we? What credible medical studies can someone link that show that the use of anabolic steroids are safe for the average athlete? Not studies talking about someone who has a medical condition requiring steroids nor "studies" of 20 year old gym rats who abuse steroids and want to convince others it is ok to do so too. (Ok, that last part may be a little bit of a low shot, but there have been several of those in this thread.)

Come on. Everyone knows we are not talking about products like Albuterol. We are talking about anabolic steroids. But I am willing to bet that your son has a prescription for that medicine. I am also willing to bet he was seen by a doctor before it was prescribed and that you saw or were told about it's side effects including over stimulation of the nervous system, irritiability, tremors, and heart palpitations. Even though this is a much safer type of medicine, you received that medical supervision and warning. The people taking the much stronger and more dangerous anabolic steroids are not getting medical supervision for the most part.

Yep. You are right. I also said several posts ago that I am ok with anabolic steroids being used for their intended purpose of treating a patient that needs them. However, it is illegal for a doctor to prescribe them inconsistent with their intended legal use. Much like it is illegal for a doctor to prescribe pain killers just because a patient wants them.

Fortunately, the AMERICAN COLLEGE of SPORTS MEDlClNE already did the research. As they say, they did a "comprehensive literature survey and a careful analysis of the claims concerning the ergogenic effects and the adverse effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids."

They say:

After their review of 115 studies the come to this conclusion:

Should we take this approach to everything? I think that is a very slippery slope. If you're not for steroids, don't do them. If you're not for crack, don't do it. If you're not for any other illegal action, don't do it but don't say that it is wrong to use steroids, crack, cheat on your taxes, or any thing else I want to do. Is that the standard that should be applied? After all, if I do it, it is my body, right? It doesn't affect you or anybody else, right? What about the cost of medical treatment that you require later in life? Who will be paying that? The insurance company or the government? Who is putting money into those? Yes, there is a fine line between your personal rights and the responsibility of the individual to society. But this is not a case where, imho, personal rights trumps that of their responsibility to follow the law.

 

Most of us are not saying that t-nation is a horrible site with no information. Far from it. Although, I will say that I enjoy other sites more and that there are other sites that are more article heavy with information. What many of us, especially myself, are saying is that it is somewhat irresponsible for an otherwise very good website to condone steroids.

 

Maverick, you are saying that a person on this board with medical training in pharmaceutical science knows less than you do and your education is a high school diploma? You are saying that every major sporting and medical organization in the world is wrong and you are right? Is that the gist of what you are saying?

 

Funilly enough, I was involved in a clinical trial which involved making buckets of testosterone cream! I've seen more testosterone that you could dream of

Watch that 'roid rage' mate.

And for the record yes, I had a friend that took up 'roids'. He used to train with Geoff Capes, y'know the worlds strongest man for many years....without steroids!
Now I don't know what substance he was 'jacking up' but he became foul tempered, peppered with zits and he had the greasiest skin I've ever seen. He turned from a nice bloke into a complete.......

So, again, where is the clinical evidence that anabolics do not cause the multitude of side effects they are known for?

I'm getting bored with repeating myself

 

lol...?

What exactly are you asking for here? I have explained how some of the side effects are harmless and temporary such as testicular atrophy, I have also explained how some are prevented with ancillaries such as gynecomastia. I have also explained how hair loss only occurs if you are genetically susceptible to male pattern baldness.

but you obviously didn't read any of that, or something.

 

You mean the one where they tested and found it grew muscle? No big surprise there is it? Do you really expect a study that lasts a whole 20 weeks will find that all the participants died or had massive tumors? Obviously not. A 20 week study is not going to find out anything about long term effects. Pretty much the typical cheerleading. Got anything of any real meat you want to add?

 

I knew a guy at my Uni actually, who, additionally to weightlifting must have been taking something because it was completley unnatural how much muscle growth he had....especially concerning his age. I only saw him take protein stuff but I suspect he also was into steroids. Because he did get fairly foul tempered and even got violent with one of his ex-gf's. Got a pretty bad reputation because of that as well.

People not only knew him as "mr.muscle man" but also a guy who would get foul tempered really easily and not be afraid to use his fists on you.

The thing is, I don't think it really matters if different steroids have different purposes and are even used in medicine, they aren't allowed in the sports environment and in fact are illegal, so whether they can be of help elsewhere is irrelevant. This isn't a site for medicine and hospital treatment, its a MA's web site where we discuss the use of steroids in sports. And sorry, unless we want to now advertise that steroid use is okay and live with the consequences, we better realize firstly this site gets read by minors as well, who could take this very wrongly. And second, the simple fact is, its illegal. So, it doesn't actually need to be justified.

Christian

 

Nope, because 600mg test E could never do that to a healthy male

 

And you know that, how?

 

Basic knowledge of the effects of testosterone.

Find me evidence of a healthy male dropping dead from a sensible steroid dose. Alas you won't find it.

 

Well, according to a study by the usatoday, 25 of the 65 professional wrestlers who died from 1997 to 2004 died with enlarged hearts and cardiac problems linked to steroids. They noted it was an unusual number of relatively young people to die from cardiac problems.

 

Do you have reliable evidence of the doses and drugs used?

Remember the only AAS users who make it onto the news will be the ones showcased for dying of some heart/liver problem. The other millions will remain unknown in their gyms.

 

I have my own biases against a lot of medical studies but that's another discussion. The problem with digging out studies that AAS use had no impact on ill health is that we'd have to have a large group of individuals with different cycles, different dosages, and run this study over a very long period (matter of years and decades). We know that this will not happen.

I won't pretend to be a foremost authority on AAS usage or pharmacueticals period. But I can say that the individuals I'm familiar with using do so with blood work up and work with TRT/HRT doctors. I realize that this maybe a bit different than some of what we're talking about but I find it hard to pin point that Joe's (random name) death was specifically because he did 1 or maybe 2 cycles. Yes, I realize that many may run more cycles than that but the point I'm trying to make is that steroids are not completely evil. Off topic but a loaded gun is not evil, put it in the hands of the wrong person and it can do a lot of damage. The same is with AAS; they can absolutely wreak havok or they can be used to benefit the quality of life of an individual. Then again, maybe we're back to the point of responsible usage through hormone level checks rather than Joe getting some roids from his friend's older brother and going blindly in with a needle.

Here are some studies showing the benefits/outcomes/results/etc (however you want to look at it) of various cycles of test cypionate

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16020137&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=15086991&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=12523867&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=10665615&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum <---some showed rage, some did not

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=10023498&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=9366978&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum <---an interesting study that someone paid for...roadrage and testosterone

Again, I have no agenda of promoting AAS usage. I do not believe or think that adolescents should be using. I realize that there are "a bang" of individuals that have used and permanantly damaged themselves; I also realize that there are individuals who have used or use and have seen no ill health effects. And I should say that I know of individuals on both sides.

 

You should have more proof than that, I've had 2 people accuse me of using this year, when all I've done is clean up my diet, sorted out my sleep pattern and educated myself about my workout. I have seen nice gains, but it's just down to hard work and it's pretty insulting when someone tries to take that away by justifying your results like that.

 

Isn't university age the best age to build muscle. As far as testosterone goes.