The (Hopefully) Once-And-For-All Steroid Discussion

A website that automatically discusses the phenomenon of chemicals should be disregarded as useful automatically as well.

For instance:


http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=899116


You can dig out more that kind of stuff from that rotten page.

If you are looking for sound advice on weighlifting I can't stress highly enough how valuable is Cyberpump. Truth is suscription only but hey! you get for what you pay for. Alternatively try NaturalStrength or Hardgainer

Just an example of what the kind of common sense advice that NaturalGainer will offer you:

http://www.naturalstrength.com/steroids/default.asp

I repeat too much weight training hinders MA progression. Period. I don't need a MAP mod to tell me what I discovered 20 years ago.

Sorry about editing profanity but when it comes to drugs I lose control of myself.

 

Like I said, dismissing a website for discussing what is an obvious issue in that realm is naive and narrow-minded. I don't like the use of them, but some people do and those articles are written for those people. While cyberpump is good, there is a plethora of free information on a ton of other websites and t-nation happens to be a top one on the list.

Obviously too much of anything hinders MA progression. However, if you are able to properly integrate it like the worlds best coaches do in all professional sports then you are giving yourself and advantage. I notice you didn't pass comment about the olympic athletes I mentioned, or the MMAers...

 

Wow. If you can easily dismiss a website which gathers and distributes training information from over a dozen of the top names in the industry, by all means, go right ahead. I wish I could change your mind, but I'm sure I can't. Okay, okay, I'll try. So you're saying that because T-Nation has regular, mostly intelligent discussions about anabolic steroids, you're comfortable not taking any advice from anyone associated with them? That's amazing.

So the best example of their good advice is a list of a bajillion links from other sources saying that steroids are bad. Mmkay.

Durk, all I'm trying to say is that a well designed weight training plan can greatly benefit a martial artist. From your original post, I concluded that you disagreed with that. I'm simply trying to give my opinion of it. It just so happens that my opinion of things is backed by decades of science, while your opinion of things is backed by old school tradition. That's that.

 

Would it be wrong to dismiss a website that had administrators or moderators that posted positive opinions on such topics as using marijuna, stealing, being a racist, or other such topics if there was some relatively good information there also?

The moderators and administrators are the soul of the website. Their views are the ones given the most weight by the users of that site. In this forum, you and BeWater will tend to have what you say be seen in a different light than what others say, even when it is the same thing. Likewise, when you visit the t-nation site, having the predominant posters, moderators, and administrators condone illegal, unethical (taking the easy, cheating way is never ethical), and highly unhealthy methods for training is not a minor issue.

 

i'm pretty sure anyone over there would take your head off for saying that. you shouldn't talk so much about things you know nothing about.

 

Oh, please enlighten me. What major sporting organization considers using steroids acceptable? Can you name one? I can't. Why use steroids except for the reason that they do you give you an advantage? Thus, the use of steroids are by definition the easy and cheating method.

Am I supposed to be scared of people at that site because I spoke the truth? I really doubt that they will track me down and try to assault me. And I really doubt that "anyone" which equates to every person on that site could take my head off. I am not exactly the tiny little weakling that you seem to think.

As far as knowing what I talk about, I have been lifting weights for far longer than you have been alive. I started using high intensity training in the 70's back when Mentzer, Viator, and Darden suggested it. While I do use other training methods such as bodyweight (hard to take your weights with you to a hotel) also, I always go back to a high intensity training program.

I have also known people that particpated in sports with me or that I worked out with that used to take steroids and died in their 20's and 30's. Were their deaths caused exclusively by steroids? I don't know. But when a guy in his late 20's uses steroids and dies from a heart attack with an enlarged heart, the use of steroids is probably a realistic contributory cause.

 

Honestly, it would depend on the information I was looking for. I've known hardcore potheads (as in, 40+ years of consistent use) who I've turned to for automotive advice. So, something like that has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

But not that Samurai bookworm. Woo-hoo. ::high-fives McG:: :love:

How much time do you spend at T-Nation? From everything I've seen, the "predominant posters" do not condone illegal or unethical methods (those terms, by the way, are as dangerous as TNT. Let's all be careful tossing them around.) Unless you're in the Steroid forum at T-Nation, there's little, if any, discussion of anabolics.

The International Federation of BodyBuilders. Aside from them, if by "acceptable" you mean legal, then there are none, since anabolic steroids are illegal in teh U.S. However, if by "acceptable" you mean, silently acknowledged and understood as "normal" by owners, then I'll definitely say the NFL and MLB for starters (though, this is another powderkeg of a side-discussion).

How about the non-competitive trainee, who decides to use tehm strictly for appearances. (Why am I all of a sudden feeling like Maverick here)

I don't know, man. I heard that Professor X dude once ate a guy as a postworkout meal, because he refused to bulk up above 150.



How in the world did we get this far off the original topic?!? Someone please split this into a new Steroid thread. Or don't. That's fine. I need sleep (during which time, my body will produce an enormous amount of HGH, Growth Factor, and other goodies.)

 

Oh boy, if you're a sport fan, you'd be disappointed. I mean really, how can you be so naive?

You take what you want. Nobody has forced you to take the whole thing.

 

The snatch is no more technical than a deadlift, a squat, a good hip throw. Save technicalities for the Olympic weight lifters.

If taking advice from anyone that has anything to do with steroids is a no no then you must disregard nearly every professional athlete out there and their coaches. Steroids are performance enhancers...no more evil than other performance enhancers sold legally. When it comes down to it, steroids are based off test w/ slight alterations and if you think test is evil...then being a man is as evil as it gets. I suppose over-the-hill individuals are bad for getting test injections from their doctor so they can have a better quality of life.

And I love how we disregard a good source of information from a variety of coaches because they give information regarding testosterone. I suppose we should burn the NSCA's texts, pharmacological texts, and a slew of other texts because steroids are discussed.

The National Olympic Training Center is not full of stories of wonderous acheivement but lots and lots of enhanced chemicals running through athletes. Nevermind that our European counterparts have been playing with this stuff for a long time and we still celebrate good achievements.

We should also get something clear-even if you pumped Joe Schmoe on all sorts of hGH, steroids, did blood doping, etc etc does not mean that they will perform where our professional athletes are. Do professional athletes cheat by taking steroids or performance enhancing drugs? Perhaps...but I'm sure that multi-million dollar contract looks pretty tempting.

And no...before anyone starts pointing fingers or getting in a tissy, I'm not advocating steroid use. I'm neither for nor against steroids.

ha1...I got called a book worm.

Yes, I went off topic and for this I am sorry.

 

quit acting so insecure, and try not to take everything so literally

 

Bewater,

Sorry for leaving the samurai out, but he wasn't particularly relevant to the discussion as he had not said anything in the discussion. But you can certainly add him to the group.

You are right, you some times have to take stuff on a case by case basis. T-nation has some good information. However, they also condone steroids, which while your statement says the IFBB condones, the IFBB website calls unethical and makes every competitor state they will stay drug free and work to oppose steroids.

Contrast T-nation with Westside barbell. The difference between the two sites is amazing. While I don't spend a tremendous amount of time at either site, I have yet to see anything remotely endorsing steroids at the westside website.

As both you and harhar have pointed out, the use of steroids is rampant in professional sports. Perhaps I am naive. I expect the same level of behaviour from professional athletes as I do professionals in other areas. As a professional, I am bound by a code of ethics. I would expect the same of others who generally sign documents saying that they will not use drugs. As samurai stated, the huge contracts are a big temptation to use drugs. Likewise, the millions of dollars that some CEOs stole by skewing their books was a big temptation. But those CEOs are looking at jail time.

 

There's a difference between condoning/endorsing steroids, and giving advice and information to people who have decided to use them. Not once have I ever seen anyone *recommend* steroids to anyone, be it on t-nation, muscletalk, etc etc. That's not how it works.

 

What's funny is that the Westside guys view off-season training as anything less than a gram of test even though this isn't specifically stated in their site.

 

That is interesting. But as you say, it isn't stated on their site.

 

true true, I always get a good laugh out of that + big country is a working police officer.

Seriously though, I sort of get your point but you're being dragged off topic here. Now you're saying that it's OK to have an organisation full of illegal drug use, as long as you don't talk about it?

I hang around t-nation quite a bit & there really isn't that much talk about steroids & I for one am not rushing off to a dodgy doctor for test prescriptions, despite having been exposed to this evil website for so long. :Angel:

 

I would never say it is ok to do something illegal as long as you don't talk about it. I am the straight arrow type that annoys the other drivers by setting my cruise control at the speed limit so that I don't go over.

Possibly another way of looking at is to consider that I am a parent. I have two boys in college and another in middle school. Being realistic, I know that quite a few people at both sites use illegal steroids. However, which site openly seems to condone their use? Which site would I encourage my sons to go to? Since I have known people that have died either because of steroids or that steroids were an influence in their deaths, I am concerned about it. Likewise, since it is a matter of public record that many professional athletes that have died with steroids in their possession also had other drugs such as cocaine with them or in their blood workup, that is an issue I am concerned with. I recently read a tribute to many professional wrestlers that have died which discussed this topic.

 

Education is the answer

Man, your kids are going to be exposed to steroids if they are involved in any sports at a highschool or collegiate level. When I wrestled in high school steroids were part of the environment. Some of my team mates who went on to wrestle in college told me about the steroid environment there as well. I had enough information and education to know that I didn't want to be taking steroids. But the way they were presented to me by people who seemed to know what they are talking about could EASILY have led me to take them had I not already been informed. Having frank and open discussions about what steroids will and will not do, what the risks are and what are myths is a good thing. You should encourage your kids to have as much information as possible, not just feed them the ol 'Drugs are Bad, Mmmmkay.' speech and expect that to do the job. Information is the most powerful weapon you can have in any encounter. Be it against drugs, street thugs, or anything else in life. Having more information can never hurt you in the long run.

Keeping your kids ignorant of the true realities of steroid use may leave them with an idea that you're over-reacting like a typical parent, you know the same kind that tells them marijuana will kill them, and they may try them. Or not knowing exactly what steroids are they may accept a "supplement" from a team mate, which turns out to be steroids.

Kintanon

 

LMAO! I was going to go along the same lines. T-nation is simply open minded enough to allow discussion of it and the majority are against it. Westside Barbell itself is pretty much all big-time users. If you read anything about Dave Tate, it will be that he has been on a test "cycle" for the past god knows how many years.

There is a place for steroid discussion on t-nation, the other 99% of the site is great.

 

There is a difference between knowing what drugs, steroids, etc are and the consequences of using them and hanging around in their presence. There is a difference between being exposed to something because it is readily available and choosing to hang out with the users. If you tell your kids all the evils of binge drinking for teenagers but tell them that a certain crowd of underage kids that regularly binge drink are perfectly fine to hang out with, you would be a fool to be surprised when your kids start underage binge drinking. You might as well prepare yourself for going to bail them out of jail. When you get to the point where you have teenage kids, I hope you see and understand.

 

And this is why kids shouldn't be shielded from information!

I'd rather them learn from T-nation than from kids at school that learn from their drug abusing dealers