The GOOD Video Thread - No off topic posts allowed

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Fudo-shin, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Edit. Ok. Apparently I did miss this bit.
    "If you sink properly, you can do it that way. If you sink downwards at an angle, it is dangerous no matter what your posture. if you sink straight down and then move forward, it is correct. There are tackles and sinking moves found in Koto ryu, Shinden ryu, and elsewhere, but since most people don't have a good understanding, they look like people trying to copy bad wrestling or MMA. However, if you know how to do these kinds of movements correctly, it will look like good wrestling or MMA."

    I have always appreciated what you say in private and publically. Sigh... More misunderstandings created by me, due to skipping over a paragraph..

    My apologies Pr.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    An un-realistic technique is a technique that require you to be 2 or 3 times faster than your opponent. In reality, when you make 1 move, your opponent will also make 1 move. Your opponent will not freeze his punching arm in the air and wait for you to finish 2 or 3 moves.

    When your opponent punches, you drop, your opponent should already make his next move such as

    - hammer fist on top of your head, or
    - kick to your face, or
    - ...

    before you even try to stand up and punch him back.

    IMO, 1 > 1, 2 > 1, 2, 3 The shorter distance that your moving path has, the faster you are, and the better chance that your technique may succeed.

    Also when you use your uppercut to hit on your opponent's chin, your opponent's body will move back. The distance between you and him will increase. How will you be able to "get that grab" and throw him?

    [ame=""]Ishizuka Sensei and Kan Sensei demonstrating Hibari from Shinden FudŠRyū Dakentaijutsu - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  3. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    [ame=""]Bujinkan: From Kata to Sparring Applications - YouTube[/ame]

    Maybe this is why.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  4. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    This makes it sound like moves are happening individually in a sequence, i.e his first move followed by my first move followed by his second move, followed by my second move. While the kata here is shown in steps, these things are all happening concurrently. While the attacker does initiate the sequence by throwing the punch, the dropping of the body is happening at the same time his arm is extending.

    The way I have been taught this kata is that you're not stopping when you reach your lowest point but are instead bouncing back up right away so the second stage of sequence is initiated by you or at least happening at the same time he would be moving into his second move.

    I have been told that the basis for the movements in this type of kata are from iai. While dropping underneath an attacker's surprise cut you're getting your sword out and immediately coming back up bringing your sword up at the same time.
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Let's play with some numbers here.

    Someone once said that he could throw 6 punches within 1 second. Let's assume that is possible. That means a punch can go out and come back within 1/6 second (punch out within 1/12 second and pull back wiithin 1/12 second).

    It's very difficult to drop down and stand back up within 1/6 second. Even if you may be able to achieve that speed, the moment that you stand back up may be the moment that your opponent pulls his punch back and interrupts your uppercut. So in order to make the technique work, you have to drop down within 1/24 second and get back up within 1/24 second. This way, you can get back up before your opponent can completely pull his punch back.

    It's very easy to test this. Get a partner and test this in full speed for 100 times and record the succeed/failure ration.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  6. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Am I meant to go out and find the guy who claims he can throw 6 punches in a second in order to try it? What if I find someone who throws 5? What about 7_ Do you think this kata was meant for someone who is going against a guy throwing 6 punches a second?
  7. althaur

    althaur Hunting scum

    You bring up some good points about big movements which take time compared to punching quickly. You miss one very valid point though; the OODA Loop.

    First things first, why do people routinely forget that certain techniques are not designed for every single situation? Some of these techniques were for specific criteria. The principles can be applied to other circumstances, but not the exact same technique.

    Now, OODA Loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. Please forgive me if you are already familiar with this process.

    Observe - When you first realize something is happening such as a gun being drawn.

    Orient - You actually look at/pay attention to the action, not necessarily turning your body to it.

    Decide - You have to make a decision on how to react, this may be slow (little training) or automatic (well trained).

    Act - You move, whether that is engaging, running, ducking, whatever it may be.

    One aspect of combat is to interrupt the OODA Loop. This can be done with flash bangs, a yell, throwing a drink into someone's face, etc. Look at the initial drop as an interruption of the OODA Loop. Most people will not expect that type of reaction, and depending on how the initial drop is done, they may not expect or prepare for the upward strike.

    The opponent has to observe the dramatic drop in height, reorient by following the person down, decide how to react to the change and then act accordingly. Is it foolproof? Nope, not at all. But it's one more tool and one more idea to take into account in combat.
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The "speed" is a relative term. I believe average person can throw 3 punches within 1 second.

    Don't know the person in that clip. Just try to make a general MA discussion. IMO, the same technique can be modified as:

    - dodge your head under and around that punch (This do not require your body dropping but your "head circling"),
    - use your left hand to push on his right elbow, and
    - uppercut your opponent's chin.

    You will get the same result with "less body movement" which can always mean "higher successful rate".
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  9. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree with you on that "interrupt" principle. When your opponent tries to punch you with his right arm, a little bit push on his right shoulder can "interrupt" that punch before that punch can generate power and speed. Of course this will require your right hand to be near your opponent's right shoulder.

    To "interrupt" a punch (your opponent will have less arm mobility) is always better than to "dodge" a punch (your opponent will have full arm mobility).
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    It's more of a psychological interrupt.

  11. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    There is an kenjutsu kata called Hiken in SFR that is based on the movement of Hibari which can also be done as a form of Iai. When you learn this kata the movement of Hibari becomes much clearer.
  12. althaur

    althaur Hunting scum

    That's a completely different thing.
  13. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The way that I have been taught Hibari is a little different from the way it's written

    There are 2 methods of dropping:

    1 - Keeping the spine vertical
    In this case you drop until your knee just touches the floor then spring back up (the older guys often don't drop to the knee, they just squat down). You keep your right hand in a guarded position and your left hand can disrupt your opponent's front leg
    The rising punch is done with the legs and is a very powerful & fast counter attack. There is a way to guard and target your punch at the same time - difficult to write down

    This dropping & rising movement is a characteristic of the kata

    2 - Dropping and leaning your spine over
    In this case it's best to be on the outside and your hands/knee typically strike the foot/ankle
    Rising up again is not optimal (it takes too long) so you stay down there and typically do a take down on the front leg

    Again this dropping down and re-appearing in a different place is a characteristic of the kata

    This is consistent with the way it's shown in the Daikomyosai clip, bearing in mind that Noguchi-sensei (the guy in the blue T-shirt) most likely is avoiding the full dropping action and taking it easy
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    As well as strike the groin on the way down or up, or use the bent over position to take their leg out. There are many henka involved in this technique, some that are safer or more practical in my eyes than others. However, the important point is that one's taijutsu, timing, and bravery must all be better than average to pull off this kind of technique. Just like any sutemi waza, there is an attitude of throwing yourself away that is important. Many people can't do that, so you get performances like that seen in the first video that kframe posted when the guy tried it out "for real."
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    [ame=""]Ishizuka sensei teach basic Bujinkan ninpo taijutsu - YouTube[/ame]

    It's all in the details!

    [ame=""]Ishizuka sensei teach techniques kenjutsu (rare video) - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015
  16. Crucio

    Crucio Valued Member

    In the spirit of the law, i mean forum law, what do you find that makes those videos good?

    I gave a like so i'll start:

    He drops his center of gravity before or during any other movement. This has numerous effects:
    -it slightly but crucially changes the angle in his favor thus making it easier to overcome resistance;
    -it gets himself off line (though it's only part of it);
    -it gives him a more stable "platform" to work from
  17. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I liked this montage - well apart from the last 15 seconds or so

  18. bujingodai

    bujingodai Active teacher now. Supporter

    Was awesome being beaten by Nagato years back. I am headed to Japan in May again. Not Booj anymore so I won't go but nice to see.
    Thank you Dunc for a positive video
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sorry for the necro, but isn't breaking the decision process just that? I don't see how throwing a drink in someone's face is different to intercepting a punch by striking the shoulder, in principle.
  20. noname

    noname Valued Member

    "The GOOD Video Thread" seems like the right place to post this. Last day of training with the HEMA folk here in Portland (I'm in blue pants):

    Incidentally, the idea of doing this for hours is somewhat incredible to me. I can't imagine how strong those ancient military men must have been.

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