First off, I would like to impose some restrictions because I don't want this thread to look anything like these: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29318 or http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35518 These are at least on the right track: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25431 http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14982 http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13964 http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9255 To minimize any confusion about what is being discussed, this is The Exclusive American Bujinkan Ranking Thread (no Genbukan, no Jinenkan, no BBD, no Toshindo, no Indies, no Brittish, no Japanese etc.) ONLY students, teachers of Bujinkan dojo in America please: (well I guess others can post too, but if I smell any foriegn bias - I will crinkle my nose in indignation and hope you feel ashamed of yourself ) Topics: 1) How rank works in the Bujinkan in general - belts, colors, kyu/dan, shidoshi vs shihan, etc. 2) Individual vs 'dojo policy' significance of rank - what they mean to the students, what they mean to the teachers 3) dojo syllabi and ranking / gradings - some dojo / instructors use a curriculum to transmit information at each kyu/dan ranking. - what do instructors feel is important in setting up a syllabus of study? - what do students feel about their curriculum or lack of? What would students want in a curriculum if they were to have one? 4) what materials are referenced in the creative syllabus-creating process? - alternatively, what sources are drawn from to create a teaching methodology that does not include any set curriculum? Any questions and all opinions (as they pertain to the above topics) are allowed. Personal anecdotes, wild speculation, dumb guesses, and brief musings are allowed and encouraged. Other rules: Stupid questions deserve stupid answers. No going off-topic. No chiming in just to say "I agree." or "Thank you." - post something of substance. Personal attacks and harassment - I don't really care, that's up to the moderators. Here's my first question: If rank is mostly insignificant on the whole in the Bujinkan, then how does a prospective student initially gauge the quality of a shidoshi?
Well, merely as a data point, let me say that after 5 lessons, tonight my teacher said to me, "hey, we're doing swords next week.....you should buy a wooden sword and a green belt".....I guess I was promoted to green without ever having bought a white belt! Thus, I think belts are *very* important and my MA genius just came through very quickly......or maybe not.... Our dojo uses the white, green, black system. White is 10th kyu, green is 9th to 1st kyu, and I guess black up to 15.....the instructor is a juu-ni. My only issue is that I don't really have a frame of reference for the things we learn....we're aren't taught the kamae or punches (or anything else) explicitly.....for rational quantitative logical guys like me it's hard to cognitively organize these things. But this is the opinion of a complete newbie.
I believe the official belts are white, green and black like Hawking said. Kids classes may work differently, I'm not sure how those ranks are structured...and there might be a few weirdos out there who give out different colored belts for each kyu rank, but 99% of the kyu students have a green belt. Some instructors have a curriculum and some instructors don't, it just depends on where you train. Here's the curriculum Shihan Van Donk uses: http://www.ninjutsu.com/shodan-curriculum.shtml but again, curriculums will vary greatly from school to school. I trained with an instructor for about two years who used a curriculum and I was not a big fan, and it lead me to stop training with him. A shihan I used to train with would basically just tell you one day that you're a new rank, or you could ask him to rank you and he'd think about it for a few seconds and then tell you. A shidoshi-ho I trained with would one day just ask you to demonstrate kihon and some rolls, and at higher ranks would have another student attack the student with a random attack and see how the student moved, etc, but your grade was basically determined by how well you moved. How important rank is depends on the instructor as well and how formal the class is. If the instructor has you bow in and out you're lined up according to rank, and when practicing technique the senior student usually goes first so that the newbies can feel the technique before trying it. After 5th kyu I was also asked to lead class every now and then because I was the senior student, and to fill in when the instructor was out of town or something. I think the problem with the curriculum is that I always felt like I was becoming very good at learning static positions and forms, but I wasn't able to adapt them and flow with them very well. It's kind of like in grade school when you have to take proficiency tests, and the teacher just teaches you what you need to know to pass the test...and while you may do well on the proficiency test, you haven't really learned a whole lot, so I felt like I was being taught to pass a test or something rather than good taijutsu. I hope this isn't too off topic for you, but at my bjj school rank is determined almost solely by your ability when rolling(sparring). You go from white to blue when you start tapping the blue belts, blue to purple when you start tapping the purples, etc. No curriculum, although you are expected to know and be able to do certain things at certain ranks, and I think that's a pretty good way of doing ranking, but unfortunately(imo) we don't do any live sparring in taijutsu, but let's not turn this into a sparring vs no-sparring thread. That's my two cents for whatever it's worth.
Hawking: ".....I guess I was promoted to green without ever having bought a white belt!" Thanks for the data! Wow, green belt after only 5 lessons . . . quick emergence of MA genius indeed! I was never asked to buy a white belt either - was told to buy a green after 2-3 months. Would have been a waste to bother with a white belt for such a short time. Most students don't even buy a keikogi until several weeks in. Maybe you just need the belt to hold the sword on your side, and there is no rank attached to it yet. Again, having to buy a white belt solely for that purpose would be a waste. I didn't get my first rank (7th kyu) until after a year of training. I don't think white belt is "10th-kyu" in the Bujinkan. I'll need verification on this, but I think it's actually called "mu-kyu" (no rank). You say you aren't taught any of the basics "explicitly." Does this mean there is no set curriculum at your dojo, or that techniques are shown in a more holistic manner? "...for rational quantitative logical guys like me it's hard to cognitively organize these things." I think part of the Bujinkan scheme is to make it hard for logical cognition when it comes to taijutsu. The training reflects the principles of natural movement, control of space, fighting spirit, and the "feel" of combat. All the dojo I've trained in were similar. That's one of the reasons I post these questions. I know some dojo use a syllabus of sorts, but I don't know how they are used in practice. I made one for myself of basics that I like to work on solo at home. It's more of a reminder of the infinite variety of skills to practice. Which is another thing that makes me think developing a comprehensive curriculum would be impossible. How does one divide and partition infinity? thomaspaine: "I believe the official belts are white, green and black like Hawking said. Kids classes may work differently, I'm not sure how those ranks are structured...and there might be a few weirdos out there who give out different colored belts for each kyu rank, but 99% of the kyu students have a green belt." Ooh, that's another interesting area: Classes for children. Some shidoshi do not teach budo to children, some do. Some have a separate curriculum; some just shift the focus of regular adult training. What similarities and differences would there be between the curriculum (or lack of) and the belt rank structure in childrens' classes vs. adult classes? What about those weirdos that like to modify the kyu ranks? If there is no set curriculum, individual shidoshi can arrange the ranks however they like and add or subtract colors, or not even use colored belts at all. "Some instructors have a curriculum and some instructors don't, it just depends on where you train. Here's the curriculum Shihan Van Donk uses: http://www.ninjutsu.com/shodan-curriculum.shtml yes, q.v. - that thread contained a lot of interesting topics of discussion and good questions, but nothing more came of it. "A shihan I used to train with would basically just tell you one day that you're a new rank, ... your grade was basically determined by how well you moved." This style or approach seems very common. Gradings come on as a surprise. Rank is awarded based on continuous appraisal by a shidoshi. Tests (if any) appear made up at random. Much like training itself, it is training for the unexpected in life, so it and procedures for ranking are shrouded in a kind of 'fog of war.' Maybe this is all to get us used to spontaneously responding to change. ?? (q.v. post #6 here) "I think the problem with the curriculum is that I always felt like I was becoming very good at learning static positions and forms, ...so I felt like I was being taught to pass a test or something ..." I know what you mean. When I took aikido, we trained according to a set curriculum so had to focus on learning those techniques we would be tested on, but also learned other things as well along the way. Even in such a formal setting, the philosophy of training was still principles-based and self-defense oriented. So, the testing out of the curriculum was more for preserving the art and having some standard for ranks, but the rest of training was on exploring variations (henka) of the principles-based kata. In that way, it was very similar to the Bujinkan training I was doing concurrently. "I hope this isn't too off topic for you, but at my bjj school rank is determined almost solely by your ability when rolling(sparring). ...but unfortunately(imo) we don't do any live sparring in taijutsu, but let's not turn this into a sparring vs no-sparring thread. " - yes let's not. That can be found elsewhere. In the absence of sparring, what other rank tests do you think would be appropriate to demonstrate that someone of higher rank has learned more and is better overall taijutsu skill-wise than someone of lesser rank? This art is quite different from BJJ! Is knowledge and skill the only requirements for kyu ranks? "That's my two cents for whatever it's worth." It's worth about two cents. I remember training several months ago visiting with my first shidoshi - I had been training in another city for a few years. He asked me why I was still wearing my old nasty-looking green belt and why I hadn't been promoted to shodan yet. I told him I didn't know and hadn't really thought about it, and that I didn't even know what was required for black-belt. He said the requirements are: "know ukemi well, know sanshin well, know kihon happo well, and have a good heart." At first, I was like, "That's it!?" But then it suddenly seemed like a lot (especially the 'good heart' part - because I'm such a scumbag). I started to question my own abilities: How good was I really at ukemi, at sanshin; at kihon happo!? I kept training hard and was promoted to shodan a couple months afterward. But still, out of all the numerous things to learn in Bujinkan Budo - ukemi, sanshin, kihon happo, and seishin are the most important for mudansha (non black-belts). Based on that assumption, how would someone make a curriculum out of that? How much emphasis is placed on each area? How much emphasis should be placed on other aspects of training? Weapons, dakentaijutsu, hajutsu, shime waza, etc. plus all the fun 'ninja stuff'? Bouk Teef: "LOL, sounds like you need your own forum judging by the amount of restrictions you've listed!!!! " No, I think having my own thread is sufficient. This comes close to breaking these rules: No going off-topic. No chiming in just to say "I agree." or "Thank you." - post something of substance. But since this thread is defined in part by its restrictions, making a comment about those restrictions is valid enough I guess. It does qualify as 'brief musing.' [Kurohana will probably delete it anyway.] Greg Chapman: "A question for you yanks then, why the American only thread? i thought Hatsumi called us all internationals?" ::sigh:: I expected this. Here's what's going on: The common knowledge about the Buj' is that there is no set curriculum, so there is much variation even between dojo/shidoshi in the same city. As an American, I was curious about how things are done in various parts of the country - as a comparison - finding similarities and differences. "do you do something different?" When this thread accumulates more on-topic, meaningful posts, maybe we'll find out. I'll classify that one as 'stupid question-stupid answer.' [I'll have Kurohana delete that one too.] Sorry about being so limiting, but I want to start with this broad range of topics confined to some specifics so it doesn't spiral out of control too quickly. We can make comparisons between other arts/styles/dojo around the world later.
no, no and thrice more no!! knowledge and skill should form the fundamental grading criteria...but in addition: 1. respect...the student should display respect for themselves. If they respect themselves, they will naturally respect others. 2. maturity and responsibility...the student should display a level of maturity which is in accordance with their biological age and their position in life. If they are not capable of behaving in a responsible manner both inside and outside the dojo, then the safety of other training partners and the reputation of the dojo is put at risk. the above are just two of the 'wider areas' that i personally feel should be taken into account when considering a student for a grading...
xenmaster: "knowledge and skill should form the fundamental grading criteria...but in addition: 1. respect... 2. maturity and responsibility..." Exactly! I would also add 3. dedication. "...the safety of other training partners and the reputation of the dojo is put at risk." Another important point. The above would fall under the 'good heart' requirement I mentioned. As a minimum, it seems, proficiency in the basics, 'good heart,' and safe training practices are all that is needed for the beginning student. That applies to all martial arts; what about more specifically? How much ukemi should a person be good at by 5th kyu, e.g.? At what pace should kihon happo waza be introduced and reinforced to ensure proficiency by shodan? What about the TenChiJin? Last I heard, Ten&Chi are recommended for kyu rank study, while Jin is for 1st - 4th dan. BTW, anyone hear of this: http://www.shidoshikai.com/ ? Also, my initial question at the bottom of post #1 is still open.
I was under the impression that most schools don't have a set list of requirments, but apparently some have them. Our instructor says that advancment should be based on technical skill not just memorization of kamae or technique. So I would have to agree with xenmaster. wow i have been training for 2 months and I dont even have a white belt. Oh well, more power to ya.
Yeah, that probably is the reason. But on topic, I am sure that rank means very very little to my dojo....I don't know rank any of the non-instructor members are...they never wear a belt (we wear street clothes only). Both really. There is no curriculum, at least that anyone there can tell, and the instructors are very clear that they *don't* want you to memorize moves, but rather to get the general idea or spirit of the move. Admittedly, that's very different from the way I usually learn things. But I guess it works.... How does it differ from Shihan Van Donk's curriculum? What levels? If it's the lowest levels, can I have a copy please? My dojo is for 15 year olds and up.....my 11yod takes Karate, and has 4 more years until she can start. Thanks for the topic!
Hawking: "How does [the list of basic techniques] differ from Shihan Van Donk's curriculum? What levels? If it's the lowest levels, can I have a copy please?" It's a work-in-progress. I continuously modify it as my understanding grows and my needs change. It is mostly based on the Tenchijin Mokuryoku (outline), but incorporates ideas from many different curriculae - including Van Donk's. I got his home study course years ago before I started training in a dojo. I watched the videos over and over, and added info to my notes. It's layed out pretty much like this. There are no descriptions of techniques, just the names, so if you don't know the tech' already, a list of names won't help you. PM me with a better idea of what you're looking for, and I'll put something together for you.
Respect. Determination. Maturity. And... ...and how you work with others. This would be the "group participation" part of a course at college. I spend lots of my time grading students on their class participation. In fact, class participation--that holistic, purely subjective thing that encompasses much more than just raising a hand and asking questions--can be 20% of the final grade, according to the State System guidelines. I always go for the full twenty, and emphasize that their participation does not have to do only with how they participate with *me*, but how well I perceive them participating, helping, guiding, or opening the eyes of others. Introverts and extroverts both find a way to do this, and the ways I grade a [college English composition] student rely not only on what I see the person doing, but also by how I see others reacting/interacting with the person. And, whether or not, during group work, I have five guys coming up to me sans Member #6, all complaining about how much #6 sucks and doesn't pull his own weight. So, I'd add that: How well you interact with others. How safe do people feel in your hands? You have people's LIVES in your hands--literally. Do you treat those lives cavalierly? Gently? Fiercely? It's also why I suspect the many technical hacks I've trained with--Bujinkan students with picture-perfect technique--who seem to radiate an almost...repellent aura that mixes overconfident arrogance with browbeating insolence, don't seem to "stay" too, too long: they don't work well with other, more modest, but no less driven, types. Part of the ranking might also have to do with retaining ones composure in the face of adversity. That is probably under the "maturity" section. In other words, you get whumped, what do you do? Do you scowl at your uke, get flustered, stomp your feet, curse under your breath, call it quits? Do you follow a verbal attack with a like attack? Or do you realize that sometimes a person who is attacking you--most of our best friends, out for a night drinking, are cases in point--is just trying to draw you out. For my case, that's happened here, in this forum, when someone from some other subforum just popped in, hurled an insult my way (he was a college junior, and I'm sure he read my "I'm an English professor" description, thus the thrill of criticizing a professor), and left. I spent god knows how much energy writing and writing and POUNDING my keyboard, filled with anger and righteous indignation. Then I deleted most of that, and suddenly it just (light bulb image) popped into my head, "Why give him the satisfaction?" and I wrote (short form), "I shall not be drawn out." Poof. Problem solved. Same goes for physical challenges. Other times, though, when I've been verbally attacked--most recently in the Special Education class I took to maintain my PA certification to teach [Act 48]--instead of turning the other cheek, my spoken reply was what can only be described as "brutal suppression characterized by an unceasing wave of unmitigated aggression." In short, another student (a teacher) had one opinion, threw out a few choice verbal attacks/ad hominem arguments my way, and chose not to sit and "take it". That ended that, and I felt we earned mutual respect--or at least detente. So, while your instructor is watching you, they are possibly not just watching you move, but seeing how you move with others. You can take everyone down in class in ten seconds flat, but if you leave a wave of bad feeling behind you because you can't control your impulses...bad ninja go away, to quote Glenn Morris. And, about "rank meaning nothing"... Oh, here in PA, we wear the white-green-black. As no one goes around announcing their grade, I've never been able to actually tell what dan anyone is beyond that color. Kind of like college--you only know someone is a senior, or a grad student, or a Ph.D. candidate; very rarely, even as professor, do you know their GPA/QPA. BUT, and anyone who's been to college can attest to--you can ALWAYS just somehow TELL who the freshman are every fall semester (without even asking) and as a freshman, you could ALWAYS tell who the juniors and seniors were, because they "radiated that aura". That would be a comparison of how "rank means nothing". And, oh, yes it does--to the person/people at that rank, at least. Ph.D candidates have about as much to do with freshman campus life as I do. They're still students at the same school, but they have different priorities. And, just try telling a post-Doctoral fellow who's working on her research that her degree (rank) has no meaning. Wow. I can only imagine the look you'd get. NOW, working along the same lines, imagine everyone fifth dan and above is like a doctoral student. EACH person has to have their own particular, utterly unique field of research--there own, personalized focus. Right? Yet, everyone takes some courses, and learns basically the same thing. Only no one, except in some very organized cohorts, learns the exact same thing. They may take standardized tests, for sure, but most of their work--their grades, or their "Rank"/dan--is based on essays, research data and how accurate it is, networking with colleagues, heck, even how many grants the person managed to secure. ALL of these factors go into determining a doctoral candidate's "rank", no? And, each candidate is assumed to have a personal contribution to the school, right? And to establish a personal rapport with her or his advisor/mentor. And to go back to Square One and teach. If you look at "rank in the Bujinkan" like the "rank" we give in the Academic world--the kind of rank that costs tens of thousands of dollars and takes years and years to achieve--perhaps that would give you a better perspective of rank in the Bujinkan. However, there are fundamental differences, including LOTS of really tough stress testing for a doctorate, including the final oral defense. One mistake and you're out--not just of your Ph.D. but all the money you spent (it happened to another student I knew at Lehigh). It's a one-shot deal in the end, all or nothing. But, how many of us walk up to people with Ph.D's and start questioning their expertise, especially if they're in the Humanities? Are we going to burst into the Cornell University History department and demand all the professors there show us concrete proof of the exact, step-by-step method they employed to determine their "rank"/earn their degree? Of course not. However, if you DO want to find a place with an exacting syllabi, with timed sessions that accumulate to the minute, that uses a standardized curriculum, and that employs constant, announced testing on scheduled dates using a 1-2-3 demonstration method, and that uses the lecture/model approach and clear, cut-and-dried, concrete criteria for giving out rank (with lots of rubrics, charts, and lists), you can easily find it--in a public school, especially in the middle grades. Okay, I'd like to edit or add more, but I'm so tired I can barely type anymore. I hope this puts things into another perspective--in other words, if we were all going for doctorates instead of dans, we wouldn't be tearing our hair out trying to compare our programs of study, our course load, our advisors/mentors, or our research. --Snake
two points; first regarding the 'does grade matter?' question, my first instructor (ni-dan bujinkan) told us once; "This should mean everything to you while your working to get it (points at his black belt), but once you get it you should see it doesn't really mean that much at all!!" He then explained this to mean that while working for your BB you must have a desire to reach that stage in the journey, that is strong enough to get you there, otherwise the difficulties you will face on the way will defeat you and you will leave the art before you even reach the level of a beginner. However, once you get it you realise that the reward for the effort was not a piece of black material you use to hold your sword by your side, but the experience and skills you have aquired along the way. He put accross to us that if you don't make that distinction then once you get your BB you will just feel deflated because you will be expecting it to make you feel different. At that point, people will either transfer their attention to the next grade or become dissillusioned and quit. If you do make that distinction, you leave the grade hunt behind and just focus on the important business of training and developing understanding. second, re; kids and syllabuses and fun we accept kids into our dojo from around 9 yrs old. There are two approaches to how they are trained. Two of the BB's focus on getting the 'form' into them. This can be quite painful to watch as the same problems come up week after week, they get the hang of something one week only to have to do it all again the next week 'cos they are kids and their minds are getting filled with alot more than just basic taijutsu principles. The kids train on sundays and i will often be asked to teach the kids for about half the class. My approach is different. (Not because i think i can do a better job than the BBs just a different one) I make sure they have fun and use the time as opportunity for them to play with what they are learning. Last week i was asked to teach them hanbo. My heart sank at first because i had visions of all sorts of disasters. But i took it slow and by the end of it they were getting quite adept at using the hanbo to apply arm-locks. I am sure that were they not being drilled in the basics, they would not have had the framework to support the hanbo work. But if part of their classes weren't more relaxed and fun then they would soon grow bored and stop training. Last sunday finished with a 'piggy-back' fight, all the adults carried a kid and ran about like idiots for ten-minutes in the morning sun. The kids loved it (and so did the adults) If you turn the training into a game for them, then they enjoy it more, and that is the most important aspect. Making sure that while kids are kids they are having fun and feeling carefree. Their world will turn serious soon enough...the most important thing you can do for the kids in a dojo is make it a place they want to come back to again and again. i try and remember that kids are really young adults and that adults are just older kids
another twist Just to bump this back up and expand the range of topics a bit - How does all of the above relate to this discussion: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35913 ? The organic nature of the organization surely has some effect on how rank works and how curriculae are developed. After much more thought on the matter in the past week, I figured that all that is important is that we get together like a family and have fun playing together. Everything else is superfluous or a bonus.
