The Elements?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Orangeseger, Sep 26, 2007.

  1. Orangeseger

    Orangeseger YouTube =/= Training

    I get into these debates from time to time, and I wind up confused more often then not.

    In the west, there seems to be a four element system. Wind, Water, Earth, Fire.

    In the east, there are five, but it varies. Sometimes it's fire, earth, wind, water, and void....then other times water, earth, fire, metal, and wood.

    I think in terms of the east, the first list is from the Japanese, and the second is the Chinese.


    Any thoughts? I would like to hear especially from the westerners what they think of the five system in respect to their own.


    (And just to ruin an easy joke...no chemistry periodic tables...)
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Pretzel In Training

    Damn, I was just about to whip mine out too!

    This is what I thought. At least I've always seen it that way :)

    Though in the west you may also see earth/fire/water/air and 'spirit'
     
  3. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    On Captain Planet, it was heart.

    Both pretty worthless?
     
  4. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I have not heard of the "void" being an element, I could be wrong as I have not studied the japanese idea of the elements. There is A LOT of theory here so maybe it is best if you ask any specific questions you have regarding the elements.

    As for the western idea, the biggest difference is of course Air or wind, in western thought of elements this can be more associated with "ethereal". In western elements Wind is a movement of the universal energy. The western elementalists would ask "if you could not 'feel' wind (physically) or see it move through the trees (or anything else) how do you know it exists?" That sort of idea.

    I personally use the Chinese 5 elements more b/c of chinese medicine.
     
  5. warriorofanart

    warriorofanart Valued Member

    Are the elements the same only named differently (the ones who are different)?

    For example the Void which is supposed to be an empty space (or in a book I read which has nothing to do with the elements), a fire that you burn your emotions, thoughts, and feelings into to maintain or create awareness or concentration. Sounds somewhat like meditation which is linked to Spirit.

    I don't know about Wood though, but could there be 6 elements or 7 or even 118 elements out there!? :eek: :D
     
  6. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    That's not an 'easy joke'. The "western" system of four elements has been superseded several hundred years ago. From what are you getting the idea that western science has anything to do with such an outdated load of garbage?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2007
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Pretzel In Training

    117 as of October 2006. But it probably is 118 by now :D
     
  8. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Yeah, I was kind of wondering why we were debating which made up system that has nothing to do with reality was more accurate.
     
  9. ember

    ember Valued Member

    They're philosophies of connection. Another way of seeing the Western elements:

    Earth - gravity
    Air - electromagnetic
    Fire - weak force
    Water - strong force

    Mrs. V's right, nowadays with the Western system I'm more likely to hear "Spirit" than void / ether.

    I think I read somewhere that the Western five-element system sort of came from India.

    For Northern Europe (sort of Norse / Viking), I've also seen the fifth element as ice.

    [Edit] And then there's the Celtic system: Land, Sea, Sky -- except those are about as much "realms" or "planes" as elements.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2007
  10. LJoll

    LJoll Valued Member

    How is that another way of seeing it? What is the connection, other than that there are four?
     
  11. ember

    ember Valued Member

    The element of earth is associated with the planet, with mass, with having one's feet on the ground-- all like gravity.

    The element of air is associated with thought and mind. Scientifically, neurons operate on electromagnetic pulses.

    I may have confused the strong and weak forces, but fire is associated with energy, emotion (often particularly anger / hatred, though also passion). Seemed appropriate to apply the force associated with nuclear energy.

    Water's the less clear one, or maybe I just haven't thought about this in long enough that I've forgotten. I'll have to get back to you on why/how it relates to the other nuclear force.
     
  12. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    No offense, those straws you just grabbed aren't going to keep this hypothesis afloat.

    It would have been less tenuous to just say "Look! There are four of them!"


    Sure, because atomic nuclei are well known for their passion :rolleyes:
     
  13. ember

    ember Valued Member

    It's not a hypothesis, it's just metaphor. You don't like it, don't use it - no problem.
     
  14. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    Oh ok, as long as you weren't trying to imply some sort of literal connection between the two concepts. They're separated by the fact that one exists, and one is made up.



    Carry on. :)
     
  15. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    Believe it or not I might actually know what the OP is refering to. Although way outside the scope of JKD the subject is being covered in a book loaned to me about CMA.

    Five Element Theory in CMA
    The elements are Fire-Water-Earth-Wood-Metal. The elements appear to represent different fighting strategies. And one element/strategy can be used to defeat another. Likewise elements can be used together like fire then wood.

    There's also some refrences here to using Five-Element Theory for health-related endeavors. The Op might want to get help from somebody in the CMA or Internal CMA forums to provide detail.

    The other source I have to work from is among the few martial-related books that I actually own. The Book Of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi talks about Five Element Strategy. The elements here are Earth-Water-Fire-Wind and the Void.

    Honestly I can understand where Musashi is coming from after having read the book a dozen times and having given it probably too much thought during quiet time at work.

    This could be an interesting thread if everyone acknowledges we're not talking about some ancient misconceptions concerning what the planet is made from and look at the fighting strategy angle.
     
  16. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    So when the OP talks about the Western concept of the four elements, he's talking about fighting strategy?

    I don't think so... I've certainly never heard of the concept in relation to western fighting systems.
     
  17. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    What I meant was that we could discuss the associated strategy of the five-element theory as opposed to being critical about how people apparently thought everything was made up of just five different elements.

    Honestly I've never heard of four or five element anything here in the states and was'nt approaching the subject from that direction. What I thought the OP was looking for was if there's anything valuable in elememt theory. In the context of fighting strategy maybe there could be.

    What about fight-flight-freeze? fight=fire. flight=wind. freeze=still like Earth and Water running down leg. It did sound funny before..
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  18. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Can I just be openly cynical about the associated strategy of the five-element theory instead?
     
  19. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP

    Ok.

    I assumed the OP was being more general than fighting strategy, since he referred specifically to the comparison between eastern and western elemental systems.

    I'd like to know what the now-redundant western elemental system has to do with anything, fighting related or not.
     
  20. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    There I have no idea other than my previous submitted fight=fire flight=wind and freeze=stand like Earth while Water down leg theory.

    Maybe I had a different understanding of what the Op was asking in the first place. You saw comparing elememt theory and I saw potential benifits of element theory in general.
     

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