The ony wrench I'll throw into this whole discussion of cross polenation is this: the human body is the human body and it only moves so many ways. Its only inevitible that you will see similar techniques across a wide variety of arts from all over the world. Whether its from one art actually influencing another or from people just figuring things out, we'll probably never know.
Jeff, Yes you are correct in that you will and do see similarities among all fighting style but an experienced person can see the flavor of the representing country. There is no mistaking Indonesian flavor in a fighter or for that matter Japanese flavor. Now I know that a picture is a still image and you don't get as clear of a representation as you would watching it live and why the debate can and is more argumentative on these subjects. Sincerely, Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Definitely agree Eddie, I just think that at some point the discussion gets moot. But then again what's the interent for? =).
Reading through all the posts in this thread I notice the Dutch are being pushed away as if they never did any martial arts. For centuries they have been training in sword, knife fighting. Not just sword but sabre and foil. Also combinations of right hand sword, left hand dagger, etc. The Dutch (especially the Amsterdammers) where also known for street knife fighting. Their where experts in 'rushing'. They would set up anything in a fight just so they could rush in and win. Nicolaes Petter's book has the word 'worstel' in the title. It now translates to wrestle, but it didn't quite mean that. Worstelen or worstel also means to struggle or grapple. Wrestling was of course a competitive sport, but Petter's book doesn't describe any of that. It describes answers to the typical everyday dangers of the streets of Amsterdam. There are no Indonesian influences in the book at all or any other Asian influences. Of course kicking and hair pulling where seen as un-gentleman-like, but in the streets of Amsterdam you had to deal with it. It was either that or die. To cut a long story short, people in Holland where able to fight and many where taught to fight with the use of martial arts. European Martial Arts. So many wars and invasions from neighboring countries and you think they had to wait for Asian martial arts to be imported? Nonsense.....
I may be wrong but Louie didn't wonder if the Dutch had their 'own' martial arts. He just wondered if the Dutch influenced the Indonesian silat. I do wonder if the 'streetfighters' you describe would ever take any gentlemen like considerations in regard :woo:
The dutch have been in Indonesia for almost 350 years and great periods of time from that era where relativly peacefull, that there have been great cultural, political and economical influences is a fact. Its's likely that there have also been martial arts influences from both sides how big those influences are however will be very hard to determine we'l probaly never really know.
