The difference between adults & childrens (Dan) gradings

Okay, this comes up on TKD forums from time to time, when the question is asked why some clubs to not issue 'Junior Black belts' to young students (u16 or u13 in the ITF). The reply (usually from an interested is parent) is often "why should they wear a junior BB, when they did the exact grading as teens/adults"!

To which my reply is that then the adult grading is flawed or incomplete in some aspects.

So, I have my views on the differences (some I`ll post now, the rest I`ll leave for later), but what do you think the main differences should be between a child Dan grading (say a 12 year old) and an adult grading (say a 16 to 22 year old)?

Basic Differences IMO should be:
a) Contact levels for competition sparring - adults should/can be harder (though not full contact) whereas children should remain touch contact at that age.

b) Destruction - Opinions vary on this, but i feel all children can break if taught properly, but the degree of difficulty of the boards should be different for kid/adults + children should wear trainers/martial arts shoes to protect their bones and shouldn't do hand breaks but display them on pads instead.

I have more, but can anyone add to this?

Also, does you club distinguish between children/adult gradings?

Stuart

 

Osu,


It is my contention that a BB should be able to defend him/herself --- a Child cannot, no matter his level of skills & ability.
There is also a degree of responsibility to holding a BB that a child may not have. (of course, some adults too).


Osu!

 

I would have attack scenarios and drills that involved swearing and high levels of aggression.
Not something I'd be happy with kids under say 13-14 doing.
I'd also leave out some of the nastier techniques too. Things like chokes and heel hooks that I would trust a kid to properly apply in the correct manner and/or at the correct time.
Maybe some sexual assault techniques and tactics too?
Something that should be a consideration for a young teen girl but something could go into in more detail with an adult woman without the same issues.

 

How are you defining child here?

Some 12-13 boys are freakishly big...

 

I agree with contact levels, although in all likelihood I'm more interested in technical sparring ability, movement, etc than being able to take a shot or give one (you can tell by watching a kick if it could have power if applied to a body/head).

I am happy for junior black belts to have to do destruction. However this should be on thin large boards (half inch/1cm, 30x30cm) as they break quite easily. I feel destruction to be more of a confidence test rather than a physical ability (often people will hit pads far harder than they do boards - they mentally hold back and it's that which is tested in destruction, their confidence to throw the technique with full power).

I agree though no hand techniques, but prefer carefully chosen kicks rather than wearing shoes (as they spread the force over a larger area and cushion the blow, making the break harder). I can't see me giving a junior black belt before 13 though, so this helps.

I also see early black belts (poom and dan) closer to the Korean view than the western view. I wrote up my expectations of each grade in another forum, I'll post it here too in a minute.

But basically, the early poom/dan grades just prove they can do/teach the basics and take correction without needing lots of examples and moving their limbs for them and should be able to remember changes/corrections without needing constant reminders.

They aren't a "mythical black belt" as they're often seen, but they are at the point where they should be able to learn easily rather than everything being a struggle.

The club I train at sends all students to the national association for poom/dan gradings, child and adult, where they do mostly the same things except destruction. My club only teaches children.

We do distinguish between child and adult grades, children where a half-red/half-black belt and V-necked dobok.

 

The ability to pass on the full style to others?
Recognition by their teacher of the ability to teach as well as compete at a high level.

 

Wow, really? A first dan in your school knows "the full style"? What's the point in the other dan levels...

Competing at a high level is relative. Frederick Emil Olsen is an 8 year old boy (and junior black belt) who competes and regularly medals at international events...

Wow - we differ so much on the definition of a 1st dan/poom...

 

The schools I went to when I trained in TKD has no difference during testings. The boards the kids broke were not as thick but other than that, the expectations were the same.

 

I think it should be a simple matter. If the child, regardless of age, can display techniques properly, with confidence and precision then they deserve a blackbelt. Problem is I dont know too many kids that can meet that level of performance. Heck, to my mind there are some ADULTS that can't either.

But then we add to the mix the ability to defend themselves and execute techniques under a combat type of secenario and even fewer kids deserve blackbelts.

My gripe is that it seems we give kids far too much leeway. "Oh look how cute he is when he tries to kick and yell hiiiiya... give him a black belt."

Unless of course we want to give JR. Blackbelts as mentioned by the OP, then we can allow that leeway. to me that signify that the kid is great for a 6 year old, or a 12 year old but still has work to do before earning a proper blackbelt.

 

How do you test for being able to defend yourself, too?

Send the testee down the pub and tell them to flip someone off??

 

Hence the reason i put a question mark. i wasnt too sure myself.
Not really sure about tae kwon do. i figured it was like boxing with a limited number of techniques but coaches really develop the tactics and skills of athletes rather than learn and teach crazy new moves.

Thats why i said the ability to teach (full transmission of techniques) as well as competing at a high level.
I guess thats just my understanding of BJJ talking. ignore me, im in the tae kwon do forum.

 

LOL!!! Seriously, I LOLd No, I dont think we need to go that far although that would be hysterical

I think a great way to test for defensive ability is to have a kumite-type event. Other blackbelts take turns throwing attacks and the prospective blackbelt needs to defend and counter each in turn.

 

what mikey said in his first post.

this is krotty, but THESE are kid black belts (or better said, they were after testing):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xAqExiD84"]1.dan examination - YouTube[/ame]

6 and 7 years old, gentlemen.

 

That would be impossible in my system. There just aren't enough years of life for them to attain it. It takes a minimum of five years to attain a black belt in my school and few make it in that time, as it is by invitation only. Heck, the head of the schools son trains and they have been for years. He is ten and just a san-kyu. Amazing how different belt gradings are from school to school.

 

belt gradings mean nothing objectively anyway. they are what the style head decides they are. skills speak for themselves in combination with individual physical capacity.

 

Why not? Are you assuming a child can only be attack by a large adult? The reality is that most kids that need to defend themselves need to do so against the likes of a school bully or some such thing. In such a case a child with years of MA experience could and should be able to defend themselves.

That I agree with.

 

Of course.

 

Osu,


Nope, I am not assuming that...
In fact, I am simply saying that a BB ought to be able to defend him/herself!

We can discuss my meaning until the cows come home, bring in weaponry and atomic bombs, but of course, you had already understood
It is okay not to be in agreement.

@coronavirus: you know what a child is, don't you? I personally like to draw the line under 17 --- but we could discuss this ad nauseam too.


Osu!

 

I personally am in favor of the distinction between junior and adult black belts and consider the junior black belt to be somewhat akin to a warrant officer. Junior balck belts in our association have accomplished as much as their age and maturity level will allow, but they don't have the responsibilities or carry the same authority of an adult black belt. For us, they are a Jr. BB until the age of 18, but there is no watering down of requirements and they are expected to do the same workload as any other black belt in their training and requirements.

I hear an opinion often mentioned on forums that since a child can't defend themselves against an adult male, they shouldn't be black belts. By that same logic, if a woman weighing 100 lbs can not successfully be able to win a fight against a 250 lbs, male, is she undeserving of a black belt as well? How many men would earn their dans if they were required to successfully fight someone three times their own body mass, especially if that much bigger opponent had no higher bodyfat percentage than they did? My goal for my junior black belts is that they should be able to realistically handle an opponent two years older and a head taller, but relatively untrained without too much problem.

 

I agree on both counts. Although I happen to know a few 30 year old children unfortunately....