The differance between "full contact" sparring and an actual full contact fight

Can we get some details on what people consider the differances and the similarities between the two

 

In sparring I aim to improve myself and ractice techniques in a realistic but safe way. If I make an error I learn not to do it next time. Furthermore If i hurt my opponent there is no necessity to continue and I always give them a hug at the end

In fighting I aim to take the other person out as quickly as possible. If I make a mistake the consequences can be fatal and there is no-one to call "time". Furthermore he might have friends wiling to join in and I will only ever hug someone if it is to take them down.

Sparring is a realistic drill - perhaps the most realistic. But when all is said and done it is still a drill.

Fighting is what sparring is drilling you for. They are relatives, not twins!

 

Aside from the obvious one is real the other is not here are some off the top of my head

Sparring

Sparring is controlled with rules
You can lose for cheating
You will be helped if you are knocked out
Bites are not accepted as a fair move
Its one on one
You won't be drunk
He won't be drunk
Random moves can be shown
If its strikes only he will not be doing much grappling
Emotions of fear, dread etc
You have a gum shield most times
Both are in pads


Real Fight

The other dude knows some training - problem
Anything goes
Possible weapons
Possible his mates will join in
You are not wearing a box
Real Fear
It can go to far
You can not contol you enviroment and may fall over objects you did not see
Fear could be used to help you if your doing well
You can go to Jail

List goes on but these are some of the main ones.

 

In the words of Debase Sensei; 8th Dan,

"You cannot fight in the dojo. The only way to learn how to fight is to fight."

Sparring and fighting are not anything alike aside from the fact that you're interacting with another person.

 

Well you are in both cases interacting but there is more chance of a REAL whooping outside of the dojo.

 

eh, i think your list sufficiently fulfills the question.

 

Just because sparring and a REAL STR33TFIGHT are not the same, that doesn't diminish the fact that full contact fighting is the best way to prepare for fighting in teh str33t.

But what difference does it make? It's obvious tai gip hasn't been in either.

 

I think I've said this before.
If you can't fight within the rules, you can't fight without them.

 

I think full contact sparring probably has value for self defense with proper training. I do have some concerns with it that I haven't been able to completely address for myself, and some other criticisms of it in regards to how it is represented by some people.

My primary concerns are:

1. To be effective, training of any kind needs to be deeply ingrained such that it can be used seemingly without thought or by reflex. Sparring tends to ingrain reactions that are appropriate for the kind of sparring being practiced. Some of these reactions are suboptimal for self-defense, such as not following though on strikes as hard as in a life and death struggle. More importantly (to me) I feel that sparring of any kind tends to train out certain responses that are valuable for self-defense – strikes to areas that are likely to be crippling or lethal, and disfiguring attacks that are very painful and more importantly distracting to the opponent, such as intentionally breaking fingers, fish hooking, or (unless you’re Mike Tyson) tearing or biting off ears, etc. It also tends to train out any reflex to use impromptu weapons that may be available in the environment and the environment itself.

2. Directly related to #1, sparring effects the entire thought process about a fight. I know this has been disputed elsewhere, but I think that sparring tends to effect what an individual looks for in terms of attacks. One gets used to NOT having to deal with the above types of attacks listed in concern #1 and risks developing confidence that he/she is safe in their techniques when in fact they are not. I feel that sparring has the risk of reducing one’s awareness of weapons and the environment as well. A person may learn to really pay attention to the opponent in a full contact bout, but they probably don’t worry about looking for a knife concealed down the side of their opponents arm, or a razor blade attached to the sole of their shoe or similar hazards that are completely outside the rules of the match.

3. If I practice self-defense training to avoid getting injured, how injured am I willing to get in order to avoid further injury?

4. My least important concern, especially now that I live in Seattle, if I’m injured from training, how effective am I at defending myself in the event that I’m attacked?

Please note that these are my concerns for myself and are not meant as criticism of anyone else’s training methods. I try to keep the above thoughts and others in mind when training in MA so that I can avoid making any unfounded assumptions. I operate on the belief that it’s not so much what I don’t know that will get me in trouble, but the things that I do know that just ain’t so (to paraphrase an old saw). If anyone has some advise on this kind of training I’d love your input, because I’ve given this a fair amount of thought and I’m not yet satisfied with the results.

My concerns with how others represent full contact sparring as it relates to self-defense include the fact that the above points don’t get mentioned, + the following:

1. In my opinion, two of the most valuable skills for self-defense are awareness of your surroundings and good non-physical (ie. verbal skills, body language, the brains to leave, etc) conflict avoidance skills. Many schools that purport to teach self-defense do not even discuss any of these things.

2. A good time in the 200 m. dash doesn’t hurt either.

3. For some reason, I assume because they have grown up in places where they’ve never seen real violence, a lot of people don’t have any idea what real criminals will do and again many MA schools don’t address this while claiming to teach self-defense. If you think that a real conflict will be just like full contact sparring, only more so, you are deluded and asking for serious injury.

4. A few full contact schools that I’ve seen intentionally or unintentionally promote the idea that physical conflict “in the real world” or “on the street” is a good idea and I have a real problem with this.

I guess this is an indirect answer to the original question, but I think it pretty well sums up my opinions. Sparring is sparring, fighting is fighting. Full contact sparring probably helps to prepare for fighting if done properly and combined with other forms of training, it may even be a critical component in self-defense training, but it isn’t the same thing as fighting and it’s important to consider the differences if you’re serious about self-defense.

--Mike

 

Obviously, since he just posted a simple question.

No need to get all defensive.

PL

 

"MMA and NHB are combat or fighting sports, not pure self-defence methods...Self-defence is not a sport, it is simply survival"

Oleg Taktarov

 

well said sir! this is a pretty good list. but sparring is a pretty good learning aid.

 

I dunno what you do, but our sparring is anything goes, full contact. BJJ has a long history of being involved in str33tfighting in brazil, so much so that the mayor of rio de janerio termed it a social menace!

First of all, finger breaks don't work, especially if you're outgrappled. Maybe if you managed to break at least four fingers on a hand that would help. But I and many others have seen people continue to spar through broken fingers they didn't even know they had.
Second of all, none of these "dirty tricks" happen in a vacuum. You must have the athletic ability to deliver them. Fishooking, for instance, isn't very effective when you're under mount or opponent has your back.
In fact, i'd venture a sub grappling champion would be better at "dirty tricks" than someone who practices them in the air and on a compliant partner. In grappling there's little dirty tricks everywhere, like resting your elbow in their eye from side mount. Or a crossface that leaves your lip and nose bleeding. There are forearms and shins and knees in throats and faces.
Just look at gene lebbel's submission book. Sport grapplers own the dirty tricks.
Look at paul vunak's article on kinu mutai. The kino mutai expert himself says that delivering a bite requires a grappling delivery system, and reccomends BJJ for exactly that.
Notice also that tyson is a SPORT fighter.
Thirdly I doubt your ability to rip off my ear with your bare hand (currently pulling for all it's worth on my ear). Even if you were to be able to do this, it would not be a fight ender.

WHAT? So just because I kickbox, I suddenly become incapable of noticing a stick which can be swung? You've got to be kidding.
How in the world did you arrive at that conclusion? How does sparring make it HARDER for us to see a sharp rock on the ground?

I don't follow your logic.
Let me try to reconstruct it.
We punch each other.
Therefore we do not expect a blade to be pulled on us.
Please provide the missing piece here.

See above. Also note there was a study done that showed that almost all victims of a shanking never saw the blade before it was in them. In fact, many of them never even saw their attacker.
If you're gonna get shanked, you're probably not going to see it coming. He won't pull a blade out, make some slashing gestures and lunge at you. He'll getcha from behind.
Short of becoming extremely paranoid, not much you can do for that.

I grew up in southeast dc during the height of the crack years. My father was a heroin addict who died of aids from a dirty needle. I've lost friends to rock, even my uncle on my dad's side. I've been jumped, i've jumped. I've even been shot at once.
Now i'm not saying this to ****wave. I simply resent the idea that full contact fighters are bouergois.
In fact, if you take boxing into account, the majority of full contact fighters probably come from a lower class background.
Oh yeah. "Scenario" and "Streetfighting" training will get you laughed at and maybe jumped in the hood.
Full contact fighting MIGHT earn you a little respect.

I've been to a few FC schools and have never encountered anyone who expressed that asinine an opinion.

 

Full contact sparring is a major part of street training but it is important to know the difference between what you do under rules and when your on the street you can do what you like.

It is the biggest helper in Self Defence that we have today and I feel it is here to stay but you need to know what it has to offer and what it can not help you with.

BJJ is one of the best arts about but only because it can be applied in a safe enviroment like Judo etc and you do not have to go to work on a Monday with a black eye from say Kickboxing. This gives you more time at higher levels of danger and resistance which is great so hence it comes back to the effectiveness of pressure testing and really how important it is.

Still it can only take you so far and you need to look at other arts and draw from all available resources to be complete.

 

How is it obvious hedge ....you dont have remote access of my pc and your not using my quick cam to see me sitting here all 110 pounds of my pimple faced 12 year old self are you ???

or is it just your superiour honed street wise instincts that tell you

or is it because i pose ideas you dont think someone with ma experiance would bring up ....

or is it just cause you think im hot and you want my ar#e

 

I just wanted to add a few more to the list:

Real Fight

You can get stabbed
You can get shot
You can die

 

hedgehogey: I think you are taking my post as being directed at BJJ. Let me say for the record that I know next to nothing bout BJJ outside of seeing a few of the really early UFC matches. I also know absolutely nothing about your personal training methods NOR your background and have not meant to imply anything about either.

I was basing my post on things I have seen and on personal experience. I have some (not a lot) experience with full contact stand up sparring and have trained more extensively against fully resisting opponents in grappling (in Hapkido). I have also witnessed some number of violent acts. I have been in a very few “street fights” because I used to be constructively paranoid (to address one of your points) and more importantly, I really don’t like to hurt people and like BEING hurt even less, so I’m really good at talking my way out of trouble. If you will notice in my post I specifically said that I would be happy to hear from people who had advice on this subject, as I had not come to any satisfactory conclusions on my own.

To reply to your post:

As I said, I know nothing about BJJ, so when you say anything goes, do you mean that it's ok to bite, pull hair out, do whatever, really anything goes? I assume that even if you can, people don't?

I would like to ask the same question that this thread poses to those street fighters from Brazil. I would like to know what they think about and keep in mind when they train, where they're coming from about training, what parts of their training they use on the street, and how they apply it differently and then ask the same question of the BJJ students here in nice safe soft Seattle (where I live at present). I think I could learn a lot from listening to the answers. If not it would still be fascinating.

To reply to this question and all the similar ones:

I'll give an example to illustrate what I'm talking about. Please note that I understand that sport TKD is not the same thing as NHB training. I use this example because it clearly illustrates my point about what you practice to the point of reflex effects your ability to think "outside the box".

A friend of mine did some sparring with a TKD practitioner. My friend had extremely limited experience with Muay Thai, and had been in a few minor street tussles. The other guy was getting close to a BB (I don't remember how close now, and it isn't important to my example) in TKD. My friend found that it was very easy to hit this guy in the face or to sweep his legs because these were things that were against the rules in the style of TKD that this guy practiced. These were things that this guy had programmed himself not to think about, or to think of as feints instead of real attacks, because it made him better at what he did on a regular basis. It was a very interesting sparring session to watch.

Now please don't say something like "well, sport TKD has rules and BJJ doesn't" because that isn't my point. My point is, to get really good at something you have to specialize and that means focusing on only the parts that really occur.

Another example:

I have a several friends who are cops back in my hometown. One of them related this story to me from his early police training. His class was on one side of a basketball court, equipped with a full duty belt, training gun, and a clipboard with pen and paperwork. There was an instructor across the court from them (width distance not length) with a training knife. The students were told that at some point this guy would attack, but that they had to complete as much paperwork as possible in the mean time. They were to deal with him without getting "stabbed". Out of something like 20 students only 1 of them managed to avoid being "stabbed". He was the last on to go, and he threw the clipboard at the "assailant", then prepared for the attack. All the others fumbled with trying to draw their gun.

My point here? They had lots of options open to them, but they focused on the gun because it was what they had specialized in.

The brain filters out what seems inconsequential, based on it’s experience and makes a lot of guesses about the data that our senses feed it, again based on prior experience. If we train it to expect certain things and to not expect certain things by exposing it to something very much like but not exactly the same as “real fighting” then it’s going to make some mistakes. I’m interested in minimizing these mistakes.

At my age I’m not interested in whether or not what I do gets me any respect on the street. I plan to do my best to never be in “the hood” ever again. I avoided it as much as possible when I lived in a place that had a “hood”. I don’t advocate “Scenario” training, and I’m not sure exactly what “Streetfighting” training would be, but I probably wouldn’t be interested in somebody advertising themselves as such. Overall, I think we are in agreement on a number of points. Most MA schools that advertise as teaching self-defense don’t teach much of anything related to it. Much of TMA will get you hurt in a real fight if not trained properly. “Properly” almost certainly includes training with fully resisting opponents as one element. Where I think we may disagree is on what else is necessary to create a meaningful SD curriculum. I also think that you may be underestimating the level of brutality that can occur. I’m probably wrong, I’m most likely simply more afraid of it than you are.

I would be interested in having a constructive discussion on these topics and it is not my intent to offend either the BJJ contingent, or the sport TKD contingent with the above post. Please be aware that I have met very capable TKD practitioners and that the above mentioned individual was used as an example of how MA training can go wrong for self-defense, not to criticize TKD.

--Mike

 

Difference is, I can be beat in full contact....

Nah, I guess in the street, anything goes. Competing at any level means you want to be the best you can be and better than your opponant. In the street, it's more personal.
In fact I've just realised why I'm not making sense (too much beer maybe?).
Full contact sparring is still sparring. Fighting is something different. Like maybe trying to compare a Formula 1 race (Schumacher etc) with the speed boats Fromula 1 boats. Two very different things. Physically and psychologically.