I've been reflecting on traditional martial arts recently, and on mixed martial arts as well. This has been spurred by several things, notably my success in various Judo competitions, my consuming passion for Thai fighting, and my background in a Chinese family with Chinese martial arts. And most notably, an old diary from the 18th century written on middle quality rice paper (I don't think the manuscript is that old, but the content is. It's likely it's a copy of the original), that I had not bothered to look at since I retrieved it from one of my family's homes in Hebei province. It's the diary of one Liao Maide, who's distantly related to me. His wife was a woman named Li Meihua, and they both married when they were around my age (near as I can guess it from the inconsistent dates in the diary and in my family tree). They had three children, Liao Haohao (later renamed), Liao Cao, and Liao Pingzhua. Liao Cao in the course of his life passed the Imperial civil service examinations and brought great wealth to the family. But, that is less important than Mai De's experiences as a soldier in a local garrison and then as captain of that garrison. Maide talk about his training and practice, how he would bend the eight span bow, learning to drill soldiers, learning to ride a warhorse, learning to shoot from horseback. Blah blah blah... I need less talkative ancestors. Anyway, I came to a portion where he explained in depth his martial arts training in hand to hand combat, but with a weapon and without. I'm going to quickly translate a passage for your convenience: There's several other passages dealing with training, but I thought this was a good one. In old times, Chinese soldiers had a broad set of training that encompasses things we would not consider "Traditional Martial Arts", with the exception of a few. But certainly not in the Chinese conception of TMA... instead it more resembles mixed martial arts, with Shuai Jiao (China's judo equivalent), Qinna (joint locks), striking, and ground grappling (shooting, mounting, etc.) Further, it combines all these with a very "Dynamic" training method of frequent sparring, resistance drills, and the like. There's some punching in the air he mentions, but very little compared to when they're striking some sort of target (especially with weapons, they were very keen on "Dynamic" training with weapons). Indeed, it appears, from this, that Chinese martial arts has gone through reduction with each component part of the training being taught as a complete entity. In the old days, I think, it would have been inconceivable for someone to train in something like Wing Chun that focuses almost solely on striking. This reduction, I think, is the result of the introduction of gunpowder, the passing of martial techniques from military to families, and regional fractiousness in the late Qing where things became much more decentralised in China. Also, the martial culture surrounding the Shaolin Temple was less conducive to large areas of martial expertise than the military, which helps explain the reduction of styles coming out of Shaolin. It must be remembered of Shaolin that for the most part the area in which the temples associated with Bodhidarmma are situated are for the most part very remote. Also, the temples were less important in the older times than modern tradition would lead us to believe, which would lead to a very insular outlook. Also, the fighters of Shaolin were monks, and so while martial arts may have been a way of life to them, it was not deciding life or death for the majority of the Temple's history. So, we can assume that the temple had limited outside contact, and the need for battlefield ready martial arts was less than the need for an exercise in spiritual devotion. So, if we put the starting repetoire of the Shaolin at mostly striking and locking, which are the hallmarks of many Shaolin styles, then there would have been little reason for it to have greatly expanded, or impetus to introduce radically new concepts (like grappling based groundfighting) to the monks because it's not a matter of life or death. To sum it up, the Shaolin system was highly limited by its insularity which when combined with the reduction of formerly military combat systems, forms present day traditional Chinese martial arts. However, looking back over the centuries to various military sources, such as diaries and manuals, we know that the Chinese martial arts much more closely resembled MMA than most people perceive. Had Wing Chun been derived from a central plains military combat style instead of a southern peasant and clerical heritage, it very might well have many of its current features but would inherently include grappling. Then I look at Muay Thai, a very traditional martial art. How it has evolved over the days, so much that many people don't consider it traditional (perhaps they would if they saw Wai Kru or Ram Muay). Yet, the much more recent Chinese and Japanese and Korean martial arts have not changed so much, but instead remained statically fixed where they are... limited themselves from their original forms. And the "traditional" training of so many martial arts isn't traditional at all, but instead a few centuries or so old. Instead, the old ways were much more hands on, and alive. Has this been a regression? I don't know, but it makes me re-evaluate the term "Traditional". I guess in the end I would split Chinese martial arts into two categories, and no they're not internal and external... I would say "military derived" and "civilian derived". There's some CMA that fall into both categories (if we are to believe their stories, anyway... Baihequan, Yingzhuaquan (Eagle Claw), XingYi... things decended from Yue Fei). Yet all of these are civilian developed through the temples and then through families, and perhaps never included the full spectrum of military training. I daresay that no Chinese military derived style yet exists as it might have been, Shuai Jiao perhaps is the closest and simple Qinna too. But these too have been reduced and refined by non-military hands, and are not a complete representation of truly classical Chinese martial heritage. The same applies to weapons, no weapon form in any modern traditional Chinese martial art stems directly from the battlefield, instead they've all been modified for civilian use as the weapons changed and needs did too. The only military styles of weapons we have are in old manuals or are stand alone systems taught all themselves, probably modernly derived from these manuals. I guess if I were to make a point of this rambling, I'd say that what we consider traditional Chinese martial arts is a snapshot of combat in the late 19th and early 20th centuries at the end of Imperial government. Combative development was all but halted then, with only a few new styles popping up and the civilian mentality and influence all prevalent in the martial arts. Even the military no longer trained its old, more complete, curriculum. I don't know what to make of it. I don't know what to make of anything I said, I just was hashing out ideas into rough shadows of form. I guess next time you think you're learning a traditional martial art, ask yourself if it really is. Or next time you argue with a MMAer, reflect on whether you have more in common in background than you think. Perhaps, mixed martial arts is no more than a return to old style martial arts, like military fighting and pankration in terms of techniques, with a different outlook and philosophy.
great post. and really, not that surprising. For the arts to be effective of course they would have to be tested. training "live" was obviously a concept back then, and its unfortunate that in many clubs, it seems to have been lost along the way somehow. I have said before that its not the arts at fault, its the way they are trained- I think if you went back in a time machine a few hundred years, an old kung fu kwoon would have a lot more resemblance to a muay thai gym than to a modern kwoon.
Good post. Very informative. It's pretty amazing that you have access to these kind of records, tell us if you find more.
I don't disagree with the substance. I am, however, cautious of using the words "Mixed Martial Art" with capitals. I would simply say "mixed martial art". It has less baggage if you don't use the capital letters. I recognize that in the purest sense of the phrase, Bai Kai Kung Fu is certainly a "mixed martial art". My beef is slowly becoming that many Chinese stylists ignore thier own mma styles. At least try them. By the way, any other tidbits from the journal? Would love to see what else your ancestors have said, the original entry was a great look into the mind of someone who used what they were being taught as opposed to a glorified myth about a monk somewhere.
Excellent post. I read "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane-Martial Power and Qigong" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming from the YMAA the other day and he stated a similar proposition in one of the chapters. He also suggested that CMA's should comprise four parts - striking (fist), kicking, grappling and Qin Na (joint locks). They would also include weapon sets. I can't remember exactly what he said off the top of my head - I'll have a look for the book later maybe. But it's worth a read.
Is that book availible online? I think many of us here agree what CMA is lacking. And that journal entry sums it up.
Thanks for all your feedback. I am translating choice passages (translation is difficult for me, since I think in Chinese when reading Chinese and converting back to English is sometimes a feat) and I will post them in the Off Topic area if anyone is interested. I've got translated the above passage, one about Maide's marriage, one about a disagreement with one of his sons, and a few about training in the military. I'll try to post passages that require the least historical explanation... it's important to note that my ancestor is from a northern family with a tradition of fighting against the non-Chinese, and some of his comments would have been very risky to write, and bordering on seditious against the Manchu Qing dynasty. Some of the pages have little illustrations crudely drawn on them, but I dare not scan them because when I tried to scan a leaf that came out of the book, it came out of the scanner the worse for wear. That's the problem with old books, eh? I'll try to redraw them on race paper or on the computer. Anyway, back to the point... I think I may have come up with a point! It's a startling revelation, I know... but I think martial arts should be taught in the old way. Where TMA and even modern mixed martial arts fail often is in their training methods. Hold your peace for a moment while I expound, I am very much a fan of the training grapplers and kickboxers go through, but in the gyms of mixed fighting that I have seen... I am less impressed. It's not that the training is bad, but that it is frequently components instead of a whole. There's little or no integration of the disparate styles, it's like I were to give you pre-cut pieces of wood and glue, but no plans or stain with which to make the table. In the end, you'd probably make their table, and some more easily than others, but it's more work and probably of slightly lower quality than if I had provided the full piece sanded and stained with a pretty etched glass cover. It's the same with most mixed training, the components are not taught cohesively, but rather seperately. I must work twice as hard to put the pieces together than if they had been taught properly together. For someone like me, with a broad range of experience in disparate styles, a great deal of effort and analysis to combine all that I know into something that can flow together. If I were to be in a mixed martial arts tournament, or if I were to get attacked and forced into an altercation, I would not be able to be a judoka one moment, then switch gears fully and become a Muay Thai boxer, then switch again and become a Sambo fighter. Instead, I'd need to be a Judomuaysamboka (I like that term) and able to flow from one concept and technique from one of the styles to a different technique and style effortlessly, as if they were in fact not different styles. That's one of the things that seperates a lot of fighters who participate in local events and the masters of combat who fight in professional leagues... the local boys' fighting is like a patchwork quilt or a particle board desk, while the great fighters' is like a downy goosequill blanket or a fine mahagony table. This requires great expertise on the part of the instructors, they must be able to take their disparate knowledge and integrate it seamlessly for themselves... and THEN teach that to their students. An example would be a drill that executes from Judo's O-soto gari to a knee or elbow to the fallen opponent followed by a mount and submission or continual striking. At that point, when it reaches seamlessness, like the Cambric shirt from Scarborough Fair, it will be a marvelous feat and no longer Muay Thai or Judo, but something different. Just my two cents.
Please, any entries you can translate would be appreciated, it's fascinating reading. I agree with the training idea. We need to encourage CMAers to incorporate it all into a unified whole. For example, what's the point of executing a great throw if you never bother to finish it? If this is what you're getting at, I am in complete agreement. It's like schools do mma but have a grappling class here, a striking class there, and then students are expected to put it all together in sparring. Ahh, no. Bad idea. Really bad idea. I like the traditional idea, especially in a school like mine that covers all the bases, but in pieces.
LiaoRouxin, Fascinating stuff. From an archival standpoint - when you go through that copy of the diaries make sure you don't do it with open hands... wear a pair of cotton gloves. The oils from your hand will work to eventually break down the paper and it may not be around for you grandchildren. As well - when storing it - don't toss it in with other books as the acid content of the other books papers could further deteriorate it. Keep it in a temperature controlled enviroment (e.g. low humidity) like an air tight box with a packet or two of silica gel (the small packets that come in a new pair of shoes) - be careful with things such as plastic and vinyl covers for it as anything that is not expressly 'archival' will give off various amounts of gasses that can also damage it. Keep it away from direct sunlight (stop the UV damage) and think of handling it much like you would antique paper currency or stamps from a stamp collection. It's probably one of the most interesting things you could pass on to future generations in your family. A question for you: 1) I am assuming it's written in Mandarin. But are the characters the 'old' or traditional characters or are they the simplified. I am assuming they are the traditional characters such as we have here in Hong Kong. 2) What Chinese do you speak at home? Mandarin? 3) Can you post a snapshot/scan of the work or at least a page of it? 4) How is it bound? Is in the traditional Chinese binding with a thread bind? 5) Is the Chinese script vertical or horizontal? 6) Are any of the entries or pages chopped with the tradtional signature chop?
Choy Lay Fut is a mixture of Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, and Lee Gar I believe. And Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut has even more Northern influences. I plan in incorporation Muay Thai into my Choy Lay Fut. I don't think the Founders, Chan Heung and especially Hung-Sing Jeong will be disappointed AT ALL. I will look up to the founders if CLF for direction. They have created a Chinese MMA system, and I plan on adding and making it even more powerful. Peace
Hehe, it's protected. I'll post a picture of it when my next roll of film gets developed. 1) The copy I am guessing is from about 1800, because the copier is a woman named Yu Xiaoxiao, who was the wife of my ancestor and Imperial official, Liao Yue. She died in 1826, so yeah it's all traditional characters. 2) I speak Mandarin. My mother's family is from Sichuan and my father was born in Hebei, I know a little Hokkien and Cantonese (I was born in Singapore and lived for almost half a year in Hong Kong) 3) As soon as the roll of film is developed 4)It's thread bound. There's another book in the collection, that I didn't pick up, that's Indian style bound. 5)Right to left vertical script 6) The chop?
just to add something here, I recently asked a friend about the history of Lee Gar gyms (there are 4 Lee Gar gyms in this city, I train at the Balmoral one with Lollo Heimuli, Shane Chapman trains at the City gym with Phillip Lam, the other two are dotted about the city) after Infra mentioned that Lee Gar is a form of southern kung fu. heres the response- This is pretty interesting stuff because Lollo and Phillip Lams other boys were considered to be very good fighters in the ring. but when you watch them fight and train, they are using muay thai, not what most would imagine kung fu looks like. which leads me to conclude what I already thought- when it comes down to it, you get some kung fu guys, some karate guys, some muay thai guys, they all train HARD, and the training is gonna look pretty similar. Phillip Lam strikes me as a no nonsense kind of guy so I would not be surprised if he simply cut the forms etc and focused on good old fashioned pain dealing.
Yep. I spend most of my days doing drills and combos. . . . shadowboxing in front of mirrors and big glass panels. . . .. If not, it's mostly bagwork, cardio (running, ropes, etc). I only take about 10 mintues on my forms each day, at most.
The chop is the traditional Chinese signature. A small stone egraved with the family name/characters. It's the original rubber stamp. These days of course many people use self-inking chops but even in a modern city like Hong Kong there are many chop engravers that still have shops set up in Dap-Pai-Dong type stalls. If you look at many Chinese calligraphy scrolls you will often see a square or an oval 'chop' in red ink... they often become part of the overal composition in addition to serving as a signature. The European equivalent would have been the wax seal. Many old ladies still use them in Hong Kong when going to the bank as there are many immigrants from China that never learned how to read or write Chinese characters. lol... I've got several for when I go to the bank.
