The debate for and against "chi"

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Black41, May 21, 2011.

  1. cjmixmaster

    cjmixmaster New Member

    Science cannot explain everything so i try not to look at it from that way, i have seen personally people moving objects on the surface of water, Fire put out on a candle with a bit of focus, and and a bottle of water move slowly towards me at lunch with said person, so personally i believe that it can only exist if you keep an open mind and allow it to exist without second guessing it.
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    The mind has great imagination as it can be easily dupped into "seeing" things
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I'm not saying that this didn't happen but......

    ...actually I have no way of finishing that sentence that doesn't involve saying it didn't happen
  4. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    The candle trick? really? I mean... really?

  5. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Absolutely 'classic'! -must be sourced from an ancient Classics text, hidden in Wudang Mountain.

    Classic Dian straight sword from the Darth Vadar family, never mind all that wimpy Chen, Wu, Yang, Sun families garbage. This is the real deal!

    Sums up this thread very well. :cool:

    One word to add on a slightly more serious mote:- it is difficult to 'see' on vid what is happening with very skilled TCC folk who can unbalance opponents with minimal effort - for this you have to experience this and draw your own conclusions. I have not experienced this often.
  6. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    I've heard some so called Chi masters that could kill w/o touching you, but I think Jesus trumps that by when he brings someone back to life by touching him. CAN I HAVE AN AMEN!
  7. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    I'd like to witness these things. I've watched a bit of Derren Brown and he's able to do some amazing things, he explains some of what he does, but some he keeps to himself. If you don't know him, he's a psychological-illusionist, he gets into some interesting things.

    Here he makes a guy double over without touching him.

    But I agree, there is still quite a bit that science can't explain. I guess that's the mystery for us to explore.
  8. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    I can see your valid point Hannibal and like FredInChina said, some of these guys have nothing to contribute. It's a lot of work separating the wheat from the shaft. You could say "I BELIVE!!" :D about chi, but I've I had a heck of a time trying to determine what these people talk about in terms of "chi power". Because what I've studied in terms of chi as energy, it doesn't seem to lend itself towards actual applied power. But then I came across this find and it explains things a bit better and can work on the level of body mechanics as well:

    This is the way that my master has described it as well, and it seems to make a lot more sense in this way. They describe it as "pressure" like in a basketball or tire. When you go to sleep the pressure is let out and therefore not able to resist a strike and you would be injured. Laying on the couch is like a half inflated tire. Standing and moving around is a pumped tire. With focus and breath work you can increase the pressure, which if you practice qigong, there is this kind of subjective feeling that builds up. On a very basic level athletes (ie. boxers & sprinters) already use this. It works on the basis of compressing the air in your diaphragm which tightens up the core. (power comes from the core)

    So it seems it works best as an analogy and the word "chi" carries many meanings with it. So it's not just energy they are talking about but many different aspects. They seem to have their own lingo and way of describing something.

    Here are the various ways they use “chi”:

    In Chinese, Chi “氣” is energy.* There are many different kinds of Chi or "energy":
    •******* Original life energy – “元氣” (Yuan-Chi)
    •******* Oxygen –“洋氣”
    •******* Carbon Dioxide is polluted or Poison Energy – “毒氣”
    •******* Air – “空氣”
    •******* Electricity – “電氣”
    •******* Coal energy – “煤氣”
    •******* Steam power – “水蒸氣”
    •******* Gasoline – “氣油”
    •******* Bloom – “氣球”
    The Chi that refers to the human body is:
    •******* A person who is angry or mad – “生氣”
    •******* A person who is sad and releases air from the mouth – “嘆氣”
    •******* An angry person whose face turns red – “火氣”
    •******* A person who pushes air in the abdomen – “鼓氣”
    •******* Physical Strength – “力氣”
    •******* Sexual energy – “精氣”

    And here are a few clippings from the article, which I summarized a little for convenience.

    Chi is internal intrinsic energy called (Yuan-Chi”元氣”), which is our original life energy from birth. He says this yuan-chi is the same as our breath or “internal gas”. The breath gives us energy to talk, to think or perform mental and physical actions. When a fighter in the ring and is out of breath, he cannot fight back. The ring announcer will announce that the fighter is out of gas. Therefore, the breath is an internal gas.

    This internal energy, Yuan-Chi can pressurize our body to sit or stand up, as well as generate high speed for powerful punches and kicks. This trains the body to absorb punches and kicks and is called “iron shirt” (鐵布衫) by Chinese martial artists. Yuan-Chi, breath or internal gas without an adequate oxygen supply and the power of mind, is useless. For example, when we are asleep, the body has no compression, the pressure level low, and the body has no resistance; it is like a flat tire. If we have enough energy and but the mind is too weak, asleep or unconscious, the body will not be able to function. Mental awareness and physical fit are needed for the pressurization of energy. This is the same as a ball, without compressed air, it will be flat.
  9. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Can someone point me to some studies that the show that the body depressurizes during sleep? I've never hear about this before and it sounds, well, wrong.
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Mine does, usually only after a large beef donair though and I would not call it "depressurizing" exactly........
  11. How can a body mostly constituted of water and solids be compressed? :D

  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    I thought Chi could do this :)
  13. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    It's more of a metaphor of compressed air throughout the body. For example my master said to tighten or hold your breath when you hit the ground during a fall to protect your organs, if the fall knocks the wind out of you it's more likely to do some damage. So they also call this compressing your "chi", which in western speak is "holding your breath".

    And when doing qigong, certain areas can feel "pumped" which could be more likened to the feeling after weight training your trained muscles feel "pumped". So it's perhaps just an increase flow of blood to the area. It may also be referred to the autonomic nervous system.
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Tantric teaching holds that a cork in your bum prevents energised wind escaping
  15. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Actually, my instructor said the opposite;

    Let out air when you hit the ground during a fall.

    In jest-to freak out, we knew how to test this;

    Simply we would hold our breath while getting slammed to the mat.

    Guess what? It made most of us pass out

    And in weight training, you have to let-out or breathe, no holding your breath there either.

    Sorry, but I do not think you or your master has a accurate understanding of the human body
  16. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    I still don't understand why we need to refer to that as Chi? We have English words for those phenomenon, and we have an understanding of them that doesn't involve Chi.
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Because using a word such as Chi, has many to believe that it is a specialized/acquired skill.
  18. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    I think the people that practice (alternative) medicine don't refer to it as chi unless perhaps they are in Chinese medicine. But you're right, you don't need to use the word, and I think the word itself creates a lot of confusion for westerners - it has for me at least. Once we started getting down to business and asking what it is exactly, I've realized that they use it to describe many things. So for us we break it down a lot more into specifics in our own language. It makes more sense.

    But since what I practice is chi kung, I was going off of the explanations of people that practice it and along the way I've had to piece together information. It's been a learning process for me because there have been a lot of good questions posed on this forum.
  19. Black41

    Black41 Click Clack Blaow!

    Who is your master? Did you learn this one in India?
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Not in India no - and I also did not do Tantrism per se. I have had exposure to the Western Occult Tradition. Sadly my Master has since passed

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