The clinch

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Knee Rider, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Ha!! Neither are unavailable... They just cost an arm and a leg. Bit like Drill to Win and Passing the Guard. Probably lying dormant in the dusty mahogany library of a BJJ dabbling oligargh or wall street trader somewhere :p
     
  2. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

  3. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Head fighting and head controll and handfighting. Very important aspects of the clinch..and fighting..or defending oneself.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVUy24Pavn4"]Boxing: Short Studies ~ Head-fighting - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8gGOwgr4XQ"]Boxing: Short Studies ~ Hand-fighting & Head Control - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Theres alot of handfighting in Muay Thai too

    So much to learn from these fighters.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUszp971_-U"]Namkabuan VS Sakmongkol - YouTube[/ame]
     
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    if you already have thai and the plum down then this clip is a good place to start, very basic fundamentals but the details on shoulder position, defending the under hook etc are very important to a good clinch game

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0nORIUjUKs"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0nORIUjUKs[/ame]

    some nice finishes for the single
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuJF03BfkU4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuJF03BfkU4[/ame]

    high C faourite of mine and high C to double, again small detals like head position make a big difference
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhJYC8mh-pY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhJYC8mh-pY[/ame]

    good basics on the sprawl and front headlock if you have a good choke game the front headlock is a great position
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiSr4aPq0S4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiSr4aPq0S4[/ame]

    finally some very nice high percentage takedowns from the back
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trVa6kA4ATc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trVa6kA4ATc[/ame]
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I will just add that from what was taught to me, Thai Clinch is a 50/50 position (meaning you can trade blows equally). A key to Thai Clinch is to hit or knee them before you clinch to stun them. Then you enter into the clinch with a starting advantage.

    If you stay in a Thai Clinch that is 50/50, then progressing to under and over hooks (wrestling clinch) would be a stronger position. Or conversely, striking out of the clinch can be a stronger position.

    Staying in a 50/50 Thai Clinch is not very good except when you put in rules to disallow wrestling and weapons. Thai Clinch should be fast, get them down and hit them quickly, IME.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Do you mean a 50/50 Thai plumb, or a 100/0 (full) Thai plumb?
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If the following picture is the MT clinch, it has the following problems:

    - While your both arms are tied up on your opponent's head, both of your opponent's arms are still free. He can pick you up off the ground by holding on your waist.
    - If your opponent uses his left hand to pin down on your right elbow joint, uses his right hand to pin down on your right elbow joint, both of your arms will be pinned down on your opponent's chest.
    - If your opponent uses his left hand to pin down on your right elbow joint, uses his right arm to wrap around your head, both of your arms and your head will be wrapped between your opponent's arms.
    - ...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WIVD85VfZTs[/ame]

    Franklin thought that too.
     
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    It's not a static position.
    1-The structure of the clinch means that it is in and of itself a defence AGAINST the front bodylock.
    2-and your liver and spleen will be exposed to knees and you won't be able to escape the position.
    3- you want to be inside in the Thai clinch, it's the dominant position.
     
  11. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    That actually makes me a little sad. You tend to forget a little with all the antics what a machine he was. Interesting how much fitter/leaner he looks there as well.
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    That neck tied arms may cause both of your arms to be wrapped. When your opponent wraps both of your arms from outside and "cause your spine to bend side way", it can take away most of your defense and counters.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS-4YnLZl_Y&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS-4YnLZl_Y&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

    Here is an example that when you use both arms to lock on your opponent's head, your opponent's free arms can wrap around your waist, pick you up, and take you down. IMO, in any clinch, to control your opponent's arms is important.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmO3PrQ_sUk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmO3PrQ_sUk[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I mean that 100/0 (full) Thai plumb easily turns into a 50/50 situation. You have a window of opportunity with a full Thai plumb clinch, which can close quickly. Once the window closes you end up in a position that can be used against you by the opponent.

    In a Thai boxing ruleset, a more skilled opponent can turn the clinch around on you after that initial window of opportunity by maintaining posture and reversing it.

    In an MMA rule set, under hooks, scarf holds, two-on-one with arm drags, etc. all can be used by a skilled grappler to gain the upper hand after the initial window of opportunity.

    In weapons, such as knives, after that initial window of opportunity for the clinch, you can end up trading blows with the knife. Not a good position for anyone.

    So stunning with a knee, elbow, or strike coming into the clinch can greatly extend that window of opportunity you have with a Thai clinch.
     
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The first video is a terrible example of a Thai clinch, it's structurally poor and they're making no attempt to control.
    The second vid shows head and arm by someone who clearly doesn't know what they're doing.
    You don't seem to understand the Thai clinch, if it's on then they can't get an arm around you meaningfully, if it's not on you should switch to collar and elbow.
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    If we are discussing counters to a Thai clinch to the head, the shoulder drop works really well if the hands drop to behind the neck in a more self-defense situation:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEyKHH0BOpE"]MMA Ultimate Set: Anderson Silva Teaches Muay Thai Clinch Shoulder Dip - YouTube[/ame]

    For example, I like to hook one hand behind the neck and walk up to behind the head with the other hand, making a fist with the inside hand to apply more pressure. At the beginning point when my hand is behind the neck (e.g. lower), the shoulder drop works great to counter my clinch.

    What I mean for self-defense is that it is harder to teach people to use this for the ring, however, because of the wrist wraps. Ideally this is more for self-defense as you want to learn to apply a wrist lock with the movements.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Incidentally, besides posturing up, this is my personal favorite counter to Thai clinch.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gpTzqczdKs"]From Muay Thai Clinch into Arm Drag - Part of the MMA Muay Thai Clinch Series - YouTube[/ame]

    Of course the above is illegal under Thai boxing rules.

    The most common counter to a Thai clinch I would say from the fights I've judged is bear hug and scarf holds as long as you can control the hips.

    I only mention counters to Thai clinch to put emphasis on the importance of the principle to always stun or unbalance on contact. Establish control immediately and then take what ever comes to maintain control. A good Thai clinch is fast to establish control, it is not ideal for maintaining control unless your opponent is predisposed to "play your game", IMHO. From a Thai clinch, swim in to grappling clinch or two-on-one control, or alternatively, swim out with striking, IME.
     
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    When I have someone in the plum. First thing I'm doing is taking their balance off as soon as possible, twisting side to side or driving downwards, then throwing a knee strike. I generally don't aim where, as the knee is just going to hit whatever is closest at the time. (and it's right there in front anyway).
    Typically, there will be a bit of a swim, but during MT with gloves, it's harder, especially with a clamp down. But I was always taught (whilst being clinched) is one hand moves an elbow, to create space for the other hand to come through.
    I would counter that with a collar/elbow tie and pull downwards to the side, to break their posture and sweep, or neck/bicep block and still keep their balance off by constant movement.
    The strikes and sweeps will be evident and obvious for opportunities.

    Other counters are risky, such as when in full clinch, go straight for a waistlock (hands clasp behind the small of the back), forcing the clincher to end up arching backwards. I'll even throw my head forward for a forehead to chin rub, forcing him to arch further back. (or accidentally headbutting, either way...do it long enough and he either falls over or the Ref breaks you up)
    Downside to the above counter...you may take a stray knee(or 2) to the jewels.

    Note: I'm primarily a close quarters, body hitter, so I'm very comfortable in that range.
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hey mushroom,

    Are you placing your knee on the outside of their thigh on your body lock? I've found that tends to protect from the accidental groin shot. Like 6:43+ in the following:

    [ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qdcQYP-jjSQ[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Its no illegal in mma you just don't see it because its not very high percentage against people who actually know what they are doing

    And as already pointed out in the Silva clip swimming out to striking, shoulder bumping or two on ones aren't that easy once the plum is established because as mushroom pointed out its not a static position I'm pushing pulling turning and oh yeah kneeing you.

    And no one swims like that are doing in that clip unless you are warming up

    And anyway the original question was about wrestling clinch for mma not Thai I believe as the thread starter has a Thai background
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015

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