The Christian Message

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Taff, Aug 8, 2006.

  1. hillbilly79

    hillbilly79 Valued Member

    I think there are people who thought they were Christians who are in hell. Here's another example: About 25% of the names on my church roll haven't attended a single church service that I can ever remember (and I've missed over the years but I've also been there enough to notice too). Now someone is undoubtedly thinking "People can worship God just as good at home as they can at church." Also perhaps they attend another church now and just haven't offically changed--that's not what I'm talking about. Without going down that road, wouldn't you think something is wrong? I know there are exceptions and I stand by argument for having Jesus in your heart as the only thing that matters in the end. But truly these people aren't religious in the definition of the word (repetition) and on the surface, it makes me wonder how can you call yourself a Christian if you never do any of the basic things a Christian is supposed do? If you don't attend school, can you still be student?
    Also one of the purposes of following God or any god is worship and serve your particular G(g)od. Can you not join a church and have no intention of worshiping God or following Jesus? More like joining a civic club rather than having anything to do with spirituality.
     
  2. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    You lost your list! :eek: Oh.... That's really bad, I still have mine, so, I should be ok.

    If you need to find one, I can tell you how, but, it involves three midgets a tricycle and and a rather large man that goes by the nickname "little big toe."
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Where's the part about Jesus dying according to OT prophesy and coming back to life according to OT prophesy? And where's the part about repentance and forgiveness? If you leave those parts off I'll say you were not a Christian in the first place. Are you leaving those parts off? I'll also say that for someone living in the USA the only excuse for not understanding the central tenets of Christianity is "I don't want to." Churches and books and radio programs are too prevalent. Solid information is too readily available.

    And, um, about that tricycle and stuff, shall I conclude that you don't know the standard either? I really hope now that Tekken knows the standard.
     
  4. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    by embrace, i mean accept, be aware of the possibility. you're looking at all but the important one, you have to consider the possibility that there is no god at all. Thats a very likely possibility. so in your logic that satan (who also probably doesn't exist) is making you second guess things, because it is our reasoning that gave you reason to second guess, could you consider me satan? :) thing is, alot of those truths are reguarded as fairy tales, so really, you're letting your self down by perpetuating them as truth in hindsight.
    and by "in the same boat" you said that to strafio as if you had made some rational argument that he hadn't. but you are by far more evangelical then he will ever be. but you're both in the same boat, as neither one of you have a logical basis to base your beliefs.

    EDIT: oops. almost forgot to answer Aiki. Well seeing as how i think we can safely assume that gates, armstrong and jolie are not mass murderers, pedophiles dictators or rapists. which i think most people agree are the worst crimes you could commit. I can say as would most that over 60 billion dollars in charities directly to help people can erase quite a bit of your past, but that doesn't mean they aren't to be accountable for it. imo, can't think of anything that couldn't be bought out of with 60 billion. simply becasue of the positive affect money of that size directed would have.
    aww, thats cute, AND convenient at the same time. how nice, i commend you on your ability to feed me crap. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  5. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    I get what your saying, but, being coined a christian is nothing more than someone who believes in jesus and his teaching. Believing and doing are to different things. I mean, look up the word christian:

    1. a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/christian


    1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/christian

    There are other things in the definition, but, first and for most is the above. I am only going to use the dictionary front runners, because it is what most people claim, it's a universal understanding.

    I am talking the difference between good christian and a not so good christian. I mean, you can take their tittle if you want, but, is that your right?


    Who said I didn't understand them, there are plenty of little spins put on the christian faith. There is a denomination right down the road from my old house, that says "there is no hell." Are you going to say they aren't christian?




    You know it was a joke right?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  6. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Oh, you mean look it up in the New Testament, where the word was invented, right? You mean let's see what the people who invented the word meant by it, right? (It's defined in the NT, you know. For real.)


    Believe what? Moslems believe he was a prophet of God. Are Moslems "Christian" ? And which Jesus? There are a lot of Mexicans in the State of Arizona with the first name "Jesus." And what are these all-so-important teachings of Jesus? Unitarians have the Golden Rule taught by Jesus. Are Unitarians "Christians" on account of that?


    I know that your answer was a joke, but the question is as serious as the difference between life and death.

    And Tekken, um, neither you nor I have even $6,000 to give away, let alone $60 thousand or $60 million or $60 billion or whatever. Shall I conclude from your answer that neither you nor I have cancelled out our bad deeds? :eek:
     
  7. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    wow man, calm down the question isn't really that serious.
    I am not implying that money is the standard for rehabilitation, i'm saying that you'd be hard pressed to find a handful of bad deeds that would somehow out weight the balance beam of the positive embraced by 60 billion dollars towards the good will of mankind.

    again, my point is that a god that would judge on belief and not action, is not a god. I wouldn't judge hitler/osama on what they believed as opposed to what they've done. would you?
     
  8. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Yes, I would, if their bad deeds were never overcome by later deeds, or, or, something.

    Here's where we are:
    We start with a person doing something bad.
    Later the person does something good.
    On account of the later good deeds, you say he shouldn't be punished by God.
    I ask, "Why not? He did a bad thing earlier."
    You say, "Because he gave a zillion billion million trillion dollars to poor, hurting, sick children, that's why!!!!!"
    And I say, "Okay, so money appeases God. Fine. But Tekken, neither you nor I have that much money. Are you and I damned or not?"

    And you haven't answered that question. So, the conclusion is either (1) only rich people can get out of hell, or (2) you need to rework your theory.
     
  9. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    I said that i wasn't implying that money was the standard for rehab, or that people shouldn't be held accountable for their past, i said both of those. But i think there should be a balance beam in play, if bill robbed an old woman when he was 10 or beat up a hobo in a bar when he was 18, the positive affects influenced directly by his money would easily over take the negatives, but i'm not saying he shouldn't be held accountable for what he did. what i'm saying is that if your god judges on belief not action, then hes in the wrong line of work. and that there should be a balance beam in play with reguards to actions. short of rape/murder/genocide. I would think any other "sins" could be attoned for by the right amount of "good deeds" a sort of divine karma.

    The question now should be since you seem to be so opposed to redemption, whats your alternative?

    wait, i just re-read your post, did you just say YES you'd judge osama/hitler on what they believed as opposed to what they've done? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  10. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    Obviously I didn't. I am not a christian, and the claim I stated above is more often spewed than any other. You know the one "I believe in god and his son therefore I am christian" do you see what I'm saying.

    With that being said for the general purpose of this, I have to go within the bare bones of the idea.

    I was looking for an opinion on these types of christians, sure I could just tell someone they aren't a christian. But, can I do that? Especially at the very basic and broadest concept of what a christian is.


    Christians aren't perfect, nor are they anything christ like, how far can it go before god says "I know you believed in me, you called your self christian, but, despite that, I don't know you" or begone in other words.



    Or are you flat out saying to be a christian is to be above all others??????

    I don't know what the point is, you could just say, god would hack the posers and this would have ended on that comment.





    I don't know, are they? Also you know which jesus... The argument you are giving has nothing to do with what I asked. Or atleast I haven't made the connection yet. It might just be me.

    But fine.

    Christian
    The word "Christian" comes from the Greek word christianos which is derived from the word christos, or Christ, which means "anointed one." A Christian, then, is someone who is a follower of Christ. The first use of the word "Christian" in the Bible is found in Acts 11:26, "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." It is found only twice more in Acts 26:28 and 1 Pet. 4:16. However, it is important to note that it is the true Christ that makes someone a Christian, not the Mormon one (brother of the devil), or the JW one (Michael the Archangel), the New Age Jesus (a man in tune with the divine Christ Consciousness), etc. The true Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8): Jesus.


    That's from a theoligical dictionary, no where does it exclude what I have said.

    To you it is, it don't hold the same value to me.. I am also not going to sit around all up tight over it. If I did, we wouldn't be this far into the debate, I would have shut off at, "prove it." I try to keep in a good nature or I end up just being rude.



    [edit] (Of course I mean all the crap I am having to write)
    Out of all that crap, this is the only question I had:

    Is belief enough alone?????
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2006
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    My question was and still is, how many good deeds do you need to cancel out a given bad deed? Subquestions under that are: How are bad deeds measured? And how are good deeds measured?


    You already know my belief on that. I'm trying to understand your belief, but you keep dodging the question. I admit that it's a hard question, but hey, you're the one who proposed that Bill Gates' money got Bill Gates out of hell. That's a pretty high claim you're making.

    Here's a thought: My idea is morally superior to your idea because under my idea rich and poor alike get out of hell, but under your idea only rich people get out of hell. Poor people are necessarily and universally damned.

    Is it okay if I say you suck for proposing that money determines innocence?


    In the way you asked that, I don't understand the difference. :confused: The question is, what if anything has overcome the bad things they did way-back-when in their lives? You gotta come up with something. Maybe there's a particular belief that will do it. Maybe not.


    Aye, I've heard that before, and I'll hear it again, but it's a crappy definition.


    Sure it does. In the NT the term "Christians" was originally a derogatory word that distinguished one group of Jews from another. The "Christian" Jews were saying that some dude who was killed in the most culturally insulting way possible was, like, God. So, like, God was killed in a thoroughly insulting manner. But, like, he came back to life, which is a thoroughly insane thing to say. And, like, it was all in fulfillment of scripture (they didn't distinguish OT from NT yet, you know) which was mind-boggling because if that were so then why were the Jewish priests all ****ed off at the Christians and hunting them down and killing them for blasphemy? That makes no sense.

    That's the setting in which the word "Christian" was coined. It meant that you were so idiotically insane that you believed that some guy was killed in an insulting manner, rose from the dead, was God, and did it all according to scriptural prophesy.

    See 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. Do you see the references to the Old Testament? And Easter? Read the long speech of Peter in Acts 2. Do you see the references to the Old Testament there? And Easter again? I'm not making this stuff up. What did John the Baptist preach, eh? That his cousin Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament, that's what. (Their mothers were cousins, so John and Jesus are, I don't know, counsins once removed?)
     
  12. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    I can't give you a scale for pro and con, but i would say a good rule of thumb is the affect and how many it affects. for the 3rd time in a row, i have not implied that money gets you salvation, if thats what i said ,then yes, you could say i suck for that. :D What i'm saying is that the amount of positive action a person does in the world should be directly linked to their standings. if not, then you're idea of salvation would be very destructive indeed. anyone can do good things, anyone can help people. thats what i'm promoting. thats what i'm saying.
    how can you not see the difference? its a straight question, would you say osama is damned because he worships a diffrent god, or has diffrent beliefs, or because he incited a jihad and promoted martyrdom which caused the direct death of 2000 people?
     
  13. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    Maybe, but it's true from what you say bellow.


    (I don't really have time to read those, I'm leaving for Ohio tomorrow morn. I will probally be reading those books you suggested on the other page though, while Im away from map and getting settled in back up home. So, if I don't reply for a while, it's because I'm gone........ I plan on posting what I get from reading the books, so it should be fun.)

    I don't understand what this is about. You knew which jesus, no where have I made mention of jews, or about any other type of jesus. I have not argued rather jesus was real or not, I have not argued rather he was who he said or not. I have not argued how the word christian came about.

    What is a christian?

    You have rejected the theological dictionary. So, what is a christian?

    If what you said above is a christian. How is that any different than what I said.


    I mean, what exactly has the above disputed????????


    I have stated that a christian is someone who believes in god and believes in jesus. How is that wrong.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is this not what a christian is ( Taken from:http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-a-Christian.html

    Webster’s Dictionary defines a Christian as “a person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ or in the religion based on the teaching of Jesus.” While this is a good starting point in understanding what a Christian is, like many secular definitions, it falls somewhat short of really communicating the biblical truth of what it means to be a Christian.



    The word Christian is used three times in New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). Followers of Jesus Christ were first called “Christians” in Antioch (Acts 11:26) because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ. It was originally used by the unsaved people of Antioch as a kind of contemptuous nickname used to make fun of the Christians. It literally means, “belonging to the party of Christ” or an “adherent or follower of Christ,” which is very similar to the way Webster’s Dictionary defines it.



    Unfortunately over time, the word "Christian" has lost a great deal of it significance and is often used of someone who is religious or has high moral values instead of a true born again follower of Jesus Christ. Many people who don’t believe and trust in Jesus Christ consider themselves Christians simply because they go to church or they live in a "Christian" nation. But going to church, serving those less fortunate than you, or being a good person does not make you a Christian. As one evangelist once said, “Going to church doesn’t make one a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes one an automobile.” Being a member of a church, attending services regularly, and giving to the work of the church cannot make you a Christian.



    The Bible teaches us that the good works we do cannot make us acceptable to God. Titus 3:5 tells us that it is “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.” So, a Christian is someone who has been born-again by God (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) and has put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” A true Christian is someone who has repented of his or her sin and put faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone. Their trust is not in following a religion or a set of moral codes, or a list of do’s and don’ts.



    A true Christian is a person who has put his or her faith and trust in the person of Jesus Christ and fact that He died on the cross as payment for sins and rose again on the third day to obtain victory over death and to give eternal life to all who believe in Him. John 1:12 tells us: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.” A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God’s true family, and one who has been given new life in Christ. The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God’s Word (1 John 2:4; 1 John 2:10).

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    If you were to sum alll this up, what is a christian?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2006
  14. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    Oh by the way, since you didn't reply to my "I don't know, are they" comment.

    Yes and no.
    Montheist who is not a christian, is well, not a christian.

    But, a christian who is not a trinitarian, is still a christian.

    Unitarian Universalist Christians....
     
  15. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Moslems and New Agers and Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and Lutherans all "believe in God" and "believe in Jesus." They just believe different things about God and about Jesus. But that long excerpt you provided fleshes out a sufficient definition of "Christian." Problem solved.


    Who or what measures the amount? Is there a published scale somewhere that I can refer to? Or, is it the case that we now will dispute which scale to use? Maybe that's the real argument, which scale to use. (I suspect it is.)


    What are those beliefs? Lutherans and Baptists and Presbyterians have different beliefs too, but I'm inclined to say that their differences don't matter. On the other hand, you won't find too many of them who would say that killing 2000 people is a morally good thing to do, whereas Osama would think it's a morally good thing to do. But that difference is a result of differing religious beliefs, I think. I'm pretty sure it is.

    Here's a thought: maybe it's not the belief about killing people that matters. Maybe it's the underlying belief about God that matters.

    Or, maybe it's how many good things you do. But then we're back to the question of where to find that pesky list of deeds that tells me how "good" my good deed is.
     
  16. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member


    Do you think jesus would make that great a distinction between them?
    I mean, aren't they simply Christian denominations? (Except for muslims, I believe.)
    Wikipedia has them listed that way anyhow.



    I think I get what you are saying. Maybe some would be more suited to other tittles, being loose with a belief system could land you under another structure with basically a similar concept. But in general, aren't these, just different concepts of Christianity?


    I think I have another way to phrase my question, the one you had a problem with.

    If you believe in christ as well as god, could you without meaning to, become separated from god. And with belief of god and christ intact, go to "hell?"

    For example:
    A child molester has stoped doing the physical part of his crimes, has found jesus and was saved. But, as time goes on, even though he has his faith, in his heart, he want's to do these things to kids. Do you think that god/jesus, would see this, and tell him that he is evil at the core, basically too little too late?

    That is the kinda thing I meant when I asked can a christian go to hell.

    To further what I am saying, can a christian sin? If so, didn't that christian just sentence himself to hell for turning away from his sin free state?

    If you say christians cannot sin, what about: second chapter, II Peter, verses 20 as well as 21

    "For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them"

    Isn't he speaking of a christian here?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2006
  17. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    That would be a fair debate i suppose, but it would be a fairly easy one.

    i'm lost on what you're even trying to say. how you can say anything other than "of course i'd judge them on their actions" makes me a little skeptical of what moral system you are actually adhering to. The bolded text confuses and scares me, either it means you're more concerned with what someone thinks about god than weather or not they promote large scale murder, or you're agreeing with me that those large scale motivations wouldn't have existed if they didn't hold that belief in god.
    The american justice system would be a good place to start with that one, if you can't weight 60 billion in pure positive results, to a crime, which can't outweight that, in your own mind, then there are very deep deep problems you need to address before continuing, you're throwing common sense out the window if you can't decipher between the 2.


    this should be my new sig. ;)
     
  18. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Yes, he would make a distinction. To say otherwise is to say that Jesus' death was pointless, and to say that what Jesus said about himself was meaningless and irrelevant. You can't really expect me to say that.

    In that list only Lutherans are Christians.


    What does "believe in Christ as well as God" mean? Is not Christ also God? Anyway, so that you get an answer, let's suppose that you're a Christian as defined by that lengthy excerpt you quoted above. In that case, no, you cannot become separated from God without an intent on your part to be separated. Those of the Reformed tradition would say that you cannot be separated from God under any circumstances. Either way, with belief in God and Christ as so defined, you cannot go to hell.


    No. But the next question is, to what extent does he control his desires? If you're going to say that he reverts to his old ways then I'm going to ask you to reconsider whether he was "saved" in the first place.


    1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, so I'll answer "yes."


    :confused: What makes you think Peter was speaking about Christians there? I don't think he was speaking about Christians in that chapter.
     
  19. WatchfulAbyss

    WatchfulAbyss Active Member

    Wow, I didn't realize that all the people under christanity can't be christians. Sorry, my fault. Yo have to admit that sounds odd....


    Force of habit to mention both. Not to mention, I have a hard time seeing god as his own sacrifice. Plus it sounds like jesus is his own dad, and it just weirds me out a little is all.


    No, I'm not going to change the question. It's a fair answer.

    No problems there then.











    "For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them"

    What is the above then. what does the bold part mean? He isn't talking about someone who was saved/christian only to turn away. Or is that not paul? I may have the wrong guy there.......
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2006
  20. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Indeed, it is odd that people would go against the historic statements that defined Christianity, while insisting that they are Christians nonetheless.


    Start at the beginning of the chapter. Peter was talking about false teachers, and it's clear that he didn't think they were Christians in the first place.
     

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