The Bible's Greatest Contradiction

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Socrastein, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. wrydolphin

    wrydolphin Pirates... yaarrrr Supporter

    Not really, not when you factor in regular old humanity, which seems to have cornered the market on being evil jerks.

    The point of that we choose to do good or evil. Every religion points this choice out, even Buddism.
     
  2. BendzR

    BendzR New Member

    If God is all powerful and all loving, then humanity should be unable to do any evil, since they fall in the universe which is created by an all powerful and all loving being.

    Simply pointing out the source of bad things that happen does not refute the point that Omicron was illustrating.

    The only way evil can be blamed on something else and say "God is not at fault regarding his (lack of) love for the universe" is if you suggest he is not all powerful and omnipotent.
     
  3. Richardni

    Richardni Valued Member

    i havent read all of the posts, so sorry if anyone has said this already, but.
    This is not a bible contradiction, the bible said he does, you are saying he dose not.
    to be a bible contradiction, the bible would have to say he does extist, then say he dose not.
     
  4. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    That was already addressed Richardni.
     
  5. Richardni

    Richardni Valued Member

    sorry, i wasn't prepared to wade through 80 odd posts to find out,
    i just went streight for the odvious.
     
  6. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Perfectly understandable. I'll repeat what I said before - I'm not speaking of internal contradictions in the Bible, I'm speaking of contradictions between what the Bible says, and what is actually true: this is still a contradiction. This thread wasn't about the Bible contradicting itself, there's other threads on that, this thread was about the Bible blatantly contradicting reality.
     
  7. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    The bit in the bible that I always had most trouble with was the bit with the guy and the talking horse. Where he'd do something stupid and he had this horse (seriously) that would tell him what to do (I think 'cos maybe it was a miracle horse or something) but no-one would believe it was really the horse that could talk (I mean, I think it was God that made the horse, so that's why it could talk). So anyway, there's this guy, oh and he also really fancied his neighbour but was a bit too awkward to know what to say so he got advice from the miracle horse but it always kinda went wrong and he'd look silly. I think it was a parable about...um...learning humility or something.
     
  8. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    STOP IT!!!! :D :D :D :D :cry:


    [​IMG]
     
  9. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    Our free will in the matter of good and evil is often cited by theists as an explanation of the evil in the world. They point out that a world with free will and some degree of evil would be better than a world with no free will but complete goodness. After all, it would be boring if we were all just automata, running around and doing nothing but good all day with our lack of choice in the matter.

    If we want to take the premise that we possess free will as true (which is another argument altogether), it would seem to explain evil in the world as a repercussion of bad human behaviour. But still, would an all-powerful, all-loving god really need to create a world with so much evil and suffering? Or, being all-powerful, could he not have created us with a better moral conscience, thereby leaving us the choice between good and evil, but having us know that evil is not a desirable outcome? And what of natural disasters like hurricanes, earthquakes and disease? Thousands and thousands of people die of natural disasters each year, and no person is responsible for that.
     
  10. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Define good and evil….. you can't, they’re subjective.

    Yes, there are some things we universally accept as 'evil' such as killing (with exceptions) or rape and 'good' such as kindness, caring etc but other than that it depends of culture, upbringing etc.

    Many thing are viewed as evil to a Christian - abortion, sex before marriage, homosexuality etc, yet not to non-religious people or society in general. So I may choose to do something, which only a Christian deems evil/wrong.
     
  11. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Both raise one question, "Why?". If science didn't then it would be stagnent. If religion didn't then humans would be stagnent.


    I believe there is a mathematical formula that proves that 2+2 does not equal 4.


    You seem to assume that a person who is religious is some how irrational?

    Does that really matter? Surely when a scientist is theorising possibilities then "god" is a possibility, just not a likely one.

    How does electricity work? Movement of electrons? Show me an electron. Show me how it moves and tell me why it moves in the way it does. In most cases you can only show something exists by showing how it reacts with the world around it. The same as "god".

    Fair enough point, but tell me this, how does knowing that a molecule is made up different atoms, which are in turn made of different particals affect your daily life?

    What I'm really trying to point out is that you are sounding very much like those you would dipose.
     
  12. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    By credibly I mean:

    believably (adv.)
    Realistically
    Convincingly
    Plausibly

    This is the wonderful thing about the human condition. What we believe, what we are convinced by, what we find plausible. To a man of science, scientific explanations are the order of the day. To a man of god, religious explanations are the order of the day.

    Try a simple experiment with a group of 10 friends. If 9 of you start telling the 1 information that is obviously wrong, see how long it is that the 1 begins to agree with the 9.

    A case in point is the Boxing Day Tsunami. Scientists can show us pictures of what causes an earthquake and how that then causes a tsunami and why there might be more than one. They can use this to try and predict these events and give warnings to populated areas. Can they stop it happening? No, just limit the damage.

    After the tsunami a journalist went around the affected areas and spoke to various people. One question was did they believe "god" had anything to do with it. A small group of tribal peoples on small islands gave this explanation. The World Tree shook and caused the land and the sea to fight over their borders. We saw the sea rush over the land, but it was pushed back by the spirits of the forest. Once the fight ended we returned from the hills. It was believed that these "backward" people, with no scientific method of warning of the tsunami, would have been wiped out. They all survived.

    The fundamental thing that one should look at it is, IMO, is this information practical to my life?

    Thanks for clarifying.
     
  13. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP


    No




    Since such knowledge was essential in the development of the transistor, possibly the most significant discovery to mankind after how to make fire, I'd say it affects everyone's daily life.
     
  14. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I don’t care why. I doubt it would affect my life in any way. This seems to be the thing religious people want most – a reason for their existence. I don’t need religion to make my life mean something. I can give my life reason without appealing to a supreme being. But even if there was a creator, it still wouldn’t answer the “why” you guys are looking for.

    It’s also worth mentioning that we humans are not the goal of evolution, we’re not special… just one branch of the tree, albeit were the current apex of life. Should it be possible to ‘replay’ evolution from the beginning, things would probably be a lot different; human might not even exist!

    That’s irrelevant. There might be an alternative mathematical formula for something, but it’s doesn’t deny the formula of 2+2=4.

    You said “Various elements of science contradict each other” so show me an established scientific idea/theory which contradicts itself.

    Yes, but that’s not an assumption, it’s an observation. And by irrational I mean specifically about science/religion/faith etc. A religious person might be completely rational about areas which don’t ‘invade’ on their faith.

    Arguments for religion/God are not logical or rational. They believe something, just because they believe it, which is fine, as long as they are honest with themselves.

    Of course, you can disprove this by making a logical, rational argument for God.

    Yes, it does matter. The very argument for Intelligent Design is: “life is to complex, therefore, it was created.” Even if one argument was disproved for any reason, it does not make apposing arguments correct my default, especially when they don’t even ask if their argument can even explain the issue. (By the way, their argument is fallacious anyway because life started out at primeval simplicity, and evolved into a more complex state. Yes, it’s hard to believe life started out exactly as it exist today [i.e. complex], buts that the point, it didn’t)

    Also, science doesn’t invoke the metaphysical so God is irrelevant to science. It’s doesn’t explain anything, therefore there is not need to appeal to it.

    No, it’s not, “the same as god.” Science is empirical, it needs to be testable. God, being metaphysical, is not testable. You say you can show God exists by showing how it reacts to the world around it. Show me how you can do this?

    A certain phenomena might exist, but claiming God as the cause of it is a presumption, something you must not do. You can speculate, but never set out with specifics and aims (such as God) in sight. Previous actions attributed to God such as thunder/earthquakes and whatnot have been shown to be natural phenomena.

    How so?

    It doesn’t affect my daily life. What’s your point?

    Likewise, how does believing in a supernatural being affect your daily life?
     
  15. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP

    I would contend that it does, in very significant ways. See my reply above.
     
  16. thepunisher

    thepunisher Banned Banned

    Thanks Homer, that is a good post. I completley agree with your post especially on the above. One thing I never understood is why religious ppl are looking for a reason for their existence and aren't just happy they simply exist. The question of "Why ?" is often asked but do we need answers to everything ? And if you think about it, who are you really living for, yourself or god ? If you can't make your life important enough to live it for yourself whats the point of making yourself a 'slave' to god ? Shouldn't your own life be more important than gods existence ?

    I sometimes think believing in a supernatural being helps relieve guilt in ppl of religion. Commit a sin: well do 100 hail marys and everything is okay again. Go commit the next sin. Also, it gives the responsibility in your life to another being , which you can use as excuses if things don't go the way you want. "It didn't happen because god didn't want it to happen !" Also helps relieve you of responsibility if you have committed something nasty: "Well, god made me do it !" And the nastiest thing, if someone doesn't share your belief you can simply tell them that they will be in hell for not having the same faith as you. Because god told you so. Not sure if that is actually a defensive move but its pretty pointless as a person who doesn't believe in god also doesn't believe in hell.

    Sorry for my strong views on this but seriously, why make god the center of your life ? Whats the point ?

    Christian
     
  17. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Technically it might, but it dosn't if you get me. :p
     
  18. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Something Richard Dawkins said on this C4 show: “Most people won’t even live… because they won’t even be born. We should be happy to just be alive, and make the most of it”
     
  19. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    No, it really, really does, because you wouldn't even be posting to this forum otherwise, and that's not the only thing that would be different. The fact that we know about molecules/atoms/etc. certainly has a huge impact on the world. In fact, I'm pretty sure our technology and medicine would still be at the level of about 1900 if we didn't have that knowledge. Heck, if we didn't know about molecules, we probably wouldn't have some 19th century technology either.
     
  20. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I don't doubt its affect and important, but it's one of those things where, while it does have an effect, you don't think about it.

    It like oxygen or gravity, of course it effects our every day life, but it just is, you don’t think about it, so in that sense, it's doesn’t affect our life, even though it technically does.

    Hence my point – it dose and it doesn’t. ;)

    How does this relate to "God," well, regardless if there is or isn't a creator, i couldn't care less, it wont affect me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2006

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