The best karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by hamah, May 31, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    I have done much research in trying to decipher what is the best karate. Maybe you guys can help me.

    First and foremost... is there a best karate? Revolving around the philosophies implemented within each style of Karate, are the philosophies key in determining the best karate.

    For example, I look up on YouTube at videos of three well respected styles of karate (and in my opinion the three best and most popular) and different sensei who practice them -

    Goju-Ryu (Sensei Morio Higaonna)
    Kyokushin (Sensei Mas Oyama)
    Shotokan (Sensei Hirokazu Kanazawa)

    Now, I know people say "it's not the style, it's the practitioner" and "one style isn't better than another", but you can clearly see the differences in the styles. I mean, when you look at Goju-Ryu - you see a lot of stomps and throws to the ground, Kyokushin has a lot of strong chops, Shotokan primarily has a lot of normal punches and kicks. Ground throws/attacks to get your opponent on the ground for a ground assault are rarely seen. (I mean, I could be wrong, but this is what I am seeing. Obviously if someone is much more knowledgeable about the different styles, do correct me.)

    It's just, it seems more that in a pure street fight, Goju-Ryu and Kyokushin would be much more of a "safer" style to use in combat because it has more diversity than just punches and kicks. Throws and chops, for instance.

    There is a reason why Shotokan is seen as much more of a "sport" karate. It is used a lot in tournaments with rules and restrictions. But even so, rarely do I see anyone even attempting outside of a tournament (during training sessions and such) to try and get a ground assault going against their opponent.

    I just find it so hard to believe that it is only the practitioner. The diversity of moves and attacks that I see in each of the three styles is noted. The philosophies and way of life are critical in understanding a martial art, but the techniques (in my opinion) are even more critical. Without proper technique and understanding said technique, you can never be a master of the art. And each style does offer different techniques to use in combat.

    I would like to see opinions on this topic. Thanks a lot guys for reading.
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    If you're going to be going for what is the 'best' karate...

    You'd save yourself a lot of misery and wasted time by clearly defining what is 'best'. It won't mean the same thing to all people... so unless you post up your clear definition of what you are using as 'best' then all of your thinking won't have a context and become rather pointless.
     
  3. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    My first experience with martial arts was Isshinryu-Karate. It was taught by two Army Veterans that were paratroopers and spent a lot of time in Japan.

    They taught me how to do the style, the kata, the vertical fist, all that jazz. Then they taught me the dirty stuff to do like hitting people with objects, kicking the joints, palming the nose, etc, etc.

    When it came down to it though, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. Learning the "dirty" stuff is more the helpful stuff in my opinion for an actual fight. What is most important though is the mindset of self-defense, and the willingness and cunning to defend yourself by all means necessary and that can be taught.

    I am a believer that it is not the style, but the practitioner and teacher that determines your fighting ability. Granted, there needs to be an air of seriousness in your dojo, a mindset of learning the moves not to "do karate" but to learn how to harm somebody (as far as the self defense aspect of it goes) if you're looking to do it for self-defense. I think if you can find a dojo with that in it, then you'll be better off then just going out to find something you think is a bang up job system. Better yet, find the system that appeals to you and make sure it has that mindset.
     
  4. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    I would assume the "best" karate would be the one that grants the highest chance to secure and protect yourself and others you care for in a fight. That encompasses a good ground assault and standing assault. You are able to defend yourself no matter what situation you find yourself in, including 2v1 and more attacks.

    Not to sound rude, but I thought something like that would be pretty self-explanatory or already known.

    Perhaps you could elaborate more on what you mean.
     
  5. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Not everyone practices martial arts for self defense or combative sport. Some do it for exercise, some for artistic means, some for appreciation of history, etc.. So with that there is definitely a difference in what "best" would be.

    I think you want self-defense, and I posted my reply on what would probably be the best way of going about looking for it.
     
  6. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    If you're going to attempt to define what is 'the best'... of anything. Then the onus is on you to clearly define where the goal posts are. If you jump in and start making assumptions about what other people think or believe is 'the best'... then you are really on an exercise in futility.

    It's up to you define what is 'the best'. In no uncertain terms. If not... it's all rather pointless.
     
  7. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    The thing with your post I have to question is... why would you assume it's only the practitioner? Other styles grant other opportunities to defend yourself through the variety of techniques that they offer.

    It's like trying to learn Muay Thai and Muay Boran. Muay Boran was what Muay Thai was before it became Muay Thai. The rules and regulations are what makes Muay Thai. Take those away, and you get Muay Boran. (But obviously you must train in Muay Boran. There different techniques and attacks to learn.)

    It's how I see Shotokan to Goju-Ryu. Goju has that "dirty" aspect of fighting that Shotokan does not. I would see Shotokan as Muay Thai, and Goju and Muay Boran. If someone grabs you from behind, Goju would train you to stomp on his feet and do all this crazy stuff. Shotokan doesn't have those elements of dirty fighting because it is more of a tournament karate. When you get trained in Shotokan, you are ultimately getting trained to compete in tournaments. You can see how much more restricted Shotokan practitioners are when it comes to training. Why would they need to worry about someone grabbing them from behind on the street when they are more worried about the next tournament coming up with other Shotokan practitioners? I'm definitely not trying to insult Shotokan when I say that, but is it not true what I say, though?

    Goju does not have the restrictions placed upon them like Shotokan does because Shotokan training usually tends to be focused upon tournament regulations. Learning techniques primarily for tournament use. Nothing more.

    This is why I believe, especially in karate, style > practitioner.
     
  8. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    Didn't I just explain what I thought the "best" was?

    Why the sudden hostility to a new poster? o_O
     
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    the one that is taught in a way that corresponds to developing the attributes you want to get out of it. it's not a matter of style, it's a matter of being taught, learned and practiced correctly.
     
  10. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    Well, martial arts was originally intended for self-defense. I understand people use it for different means, but in all karate you are gonna learn your basic punches and kicks. The self-defense aspect will never leave the core of any karate.
     
  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    It's not really hostility. Slip is a moderator, on top of that he's been around the site for years. Trust me when I say this thread could easily be closed and you could be told "use the search function." Even though I've had an on and off relationship with MAP over the years (had a different screen name) I've already seen plenty of threads started with the same topic of discussion.

    It's probably staying open because you are new to be honest : P. Sometimes it gets a little tiresome with threads like this, just keep that in mind when you feel somebody is being a little hostile. If you're being trolled, or somebody is hostile, trust me . . . you'll know it.
     
  12. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    I spoke on that aspect in a previous reply. If you could read it and respond to what I said, it'd be cool. Thanks.
     
  13. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I understand this very well. But I was answering your confusion to somebody asking you what you meant by "best" since we live in a different world in which Karate now in which it isn't always used for self-defense applications by the practitioner. You would be surprised the number of people who do not do martial arts with a combative mindset.
     
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Hmm... to an extent. I'm just saying for a conversation to advance to any great degree and get everyone on the same page and working towards defining the idea based on the same goal posts.

    Uh what? Relax. That's not hostility. I've been on the board long enough to see pretty much this exact same thread over the last five years come up time and time again and the problem is always the same... the random abstract concept of 'the best' is usually very ill defined and leads to no end of problems in the thread because everyone is on a different page.

    Pointing that out is hardly hostile.


    At any rate... if you feel like you've put out there what your version of 'the best' has been defined.... Then by all means carry on.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  15. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    The practitioner (or consumer, looking for a certain product which in this case is self-defense) has the obligation of finding the style and gym in which he wishes to train in order to receive what he wants from it. I'm quite certain there are shotokan gyms that don't focus intensely on sparring. You need to find what appeals to you, and then go look for the dojo that offers what you're looking for.

    Have you ever heard of Krav-Maga? That sounds like something you might be interested in as well.
     
  16. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Best karate style for producing competent fighters is probably Kyokushin these days. It's not the most rounded, but it's almost universally pressure tested which means you're consistently going to come out with people who can fight.
    Daido Juku is a ruleset rather than a style, isn't it?

    Best school for what you're asking, I'd point you towards JWT on this site. I'm not sure which style of karate he practices and teaches but he does it in a realistic way with solid, all ranges pressure testing and scenario training built upon a good understanding of what one is likely to encounter prior to, during, and after an altercation. I'm sure there are better out there, but I haven't seen any that fit what you're asking for at a higher quality. At least that's my perspective on it as someone who has seen him post and teach here on MAP.
     
  17. hamah

    hamah Valued Member


    EDIT: For TL;DR purposes (copy and pasting what I wrote in another reply) -

    Styles are different, but why should I suffer not knowing how to defend against a knife because my style doesn't teach that?

    That's why I still stick to style > practitioner.

    -

    Ah. I get you. Well, I thought I did explain what the "best" was, but perhaps I can elaborate a little more.

    Karate encompasses the yin and the yang into a persons being. Being in tune with the universe. I feel that every single karate out there, in terms of philosophies, each karate encompasses the yin and the yang flawlessly. They all center around that basic philosophy.

    Now, when it comes down to self-defense, each karate approaches that differently.

    To me, the ideal karate is one that no matter the situation, you can always defend yourself. Whether it involves a judo master or a wushu master, whatever the case may be, you can effectively protect yourself and the ones you care about effectively.

    Different techniques allow for different approaches in dealing with different scenarios. But if your karate is focused on one thing, how can you possibly know how to deal with every threat out there?

    If I train in tournament battle, how effective will that be to me in street fights?

    That's an example. If I am not trained to defend against a knife, how can I defend against one? I am not suddenly gonna learn how.

    I'm really trying to get to the point as easily as I can, but I feel like I am speaking verbatim to you over and over.

    How can the "best" karate be the best if one doesn't know how to defend against a knife, or a taekwondo master, etc. The primary core of karate is self-defense, no matter which way you want to use the karate in the end. You will learn basic punches and kicks. Karate is the art of the empty palm.

    The more you learn, the more versed you are in the complete definition of what "true" karate is.

    Even Wikipedia speaks on this - "Karate is a striking art using punching, kicking, knee and elbow strikes, and open-handed techniques such as knife-hands. Grappling, locks, restraints, throws, and vital point strikes are taught in some styles."

    How can the "best" karate be defined as so if it's practitioners are learning less than what another style is learning? It makes no sense.

    The best karate grants the practitioner full knowledge of the martial art, not just some. The best karate doesn't grant restrictions, because your opponent will not be using restrictions either.

    I hope you understand me. I was pretty straight-forward.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  18. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    Shotokan dojos primarily focus on tournament sport fighting.

    Yes, I have heard of Krav Maga. But that only solidifies my point about the style, not the practitioner. The style of Krav Maga focuses on attacks from knives and guns. That's knowledge that say... a taekwondo fighter won't know. Krav Maga would do some grapples and locks. Taekwondo would most likely just kick. Different styles. Still martial arts, and still self-defense, but the diversity of grapples separates Krav Maga from Taekwondo. You learn different techniques in each of the different martial arts, but Krav Maga seems more applicable to real world fighting. That limits what a Taekwondo practitioner can do because he is not taught the same self-defense techniques that a Krav Maga practitioner does.

    Styles are different, but why should I suffer not knowing how to defend against a knife because my style doesn't teach that?

    That's why I still stick to style > practitioner.
     
  19. hamah

    hamah Valued Member

    Kyokushin over Goju-Ryu? How come? Asking out of curiosity.

    And I do not know who JWT is. Can you link him to me?
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i read that, and i'm telling you that basing it on style makes no sense. styles are just collections of techniques and traditions. some styles have it as a tradition to beat the crap out of each other in a very hardcore manner, and to generally train really well, such as kyokushinkai, but you can find some goju, ****o or even shotokan dojo who train as hard as kyokushinkai dojo. and even that means jack-squat for actual combat beyond the ability to give and receive punches and kicks. there is much more to fighting than punching or kicking, both in or out of the ring. it all depends on who is teaching you. if a kyokushinkai guy switches to any other style and teaches it with the same intensity he used for kyokushinkai, does that mean that the other style is suddenly good? what if he teaches kyokushinkai material without exercise, body-conditioning and full-contact sparring? does that make kyokushinkai bad? do you see where my argument comes from?

    ratty already mentioned jwt. if you can (assuming you're even in england, of course), go train with jwt. he teaches RBSD based on shotokan material. if you manage to go train with him, i dare you to find me even ONE dojo afterwards, of any style of karate, that teaches something even half as applicable to the realities of fighting. they're out there, but what you need is a teacher who knows his crap, not a specific style, and those are REALLY hard to find.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page