The advice is to run, but, where to?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Tom bayley, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Even before that, you need two things that can't be taught at seminars: street smarts and social skills.

    I've only ever been caught up in violent/potentially violent encounters out of choice to defend other people or because I didn't want to put up with antisocial behaviour.

    Before I'd done any training I would be the guy that the nutters would want to buy a pint and tell their life story to. More than once I thought a punch in the face would be preferable. Avoidance always seemed obvious to me, and thinking on my feet to talk my way out (usually talk my friends out) of a situation with someone spoiling for a fight came naturally.

    The use of interpersonal skills depend not only on the defender, but the aggressor as well, and how the two interact in at any time, in a particular context. There are so many variables that I'm not sure you could really codify it, and teaching that to the people who need it most would be a life's work.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Well that's what I'll now be calling them from now on!
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I think having enough experience to know, when you should definitely leave a social situation, because your Spidey sense is saying there's a fight coming is an invaluable skill.

    Although you tend to have to hang out in dives to be able to learn that.
    David Harrison likes this.
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    No. When you chose to post

    You drew a line of comparison between my understanding and that of a toddler. If there was an insult it was you insulting me. But you are correct that I should not have responded to your provocation. I broke the central tenant of the internet.

  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Oh, and as for the OP; the answer is "it depends". It depends on the local area, your knowledge of the local area, and also who you are. The safety of a place can depend on your culture, gender etc...
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think that's enough with the back and forth please Tom and David.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Already done, which is why I replied to the OP above rather than Tom's last post.
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think to some degree street smarts can be taught. Or at the very least raising awareness of attack rituals, set ups, likely situations, what to look out for, how to appear outwardly confident, etc etc.
    Obviously not to the level of someone who's been having to deal with violence from day one but to some level above "nothing" maybe?
    Social skills are obviously a much harder thing to tackle.
    And I talk as someone who finds social situations fairly stressful and something to be avoided.
    David Harrison likes this.
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    A good story I heard from Frank Skinner on a podcast recently was, as a kid, his Dad coming home from the pub one night with bruised knuckles. He asked his Dad what had happened. His Dad said "this guy stopped me to ask the time so I punched him ". Skinner asked why he did that to which his Dad replied "I've seen that trick before".
    Now you can learn those sorts of street smarts by experience (which will not be pleasant or even available to people in quiet or trouble free areas) or by explaining to someone that sometimes muggers will approach you with a seemingly innocuous question or request in order to gauge your awareness, confidence, suitability as a target, bring down your defences, etc.
    I'm not sure how much that knowledge helps but I like to think it's better to know that kind of thing than not?
    David Harrison likes this.
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Of course it's better, but implicit in that story is his dad not being so quick to recognise the threat in the past. That is the emotional content I was talking about before. When someone, especially someone who is a bit handy, tells you (or in this case implies) about regretting coming a cropper and what they have done since to avoid it happening again, that sticks a lot more than looking at crime stats, memorising mnemonics or what have you.
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Absolutely. Knew a guy from Newcastle about 20 years ago. Never trained a day in his life but had had a "colourful" time in his youth.
    Got to discussing martial arts, fighting etc and he said to me "Way aye man...just make shur ya hit 'em furst and try not to fall awa".
    Hard won knowledge on his part that has stuck with me to this day and is more useful or profound than anything I've ever been told in a TKD dojang! :)
    David Harrison likes this.
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree! the "loved ones' is the key.

    I just watched the movie "Wrong Turn" last night. When danger happed, a guy ran and let his girl friend behind. The girl said, "I hate you! Why did you run away and left me behind?"

    You can run today, You can also run tomorrow. One day you just can't run any more and you have to stand on your ground and fight back. That's why you train MA just to prepare for that day to come.

    The reason that I hate the term self-defense because it's selfish. It doesn't include to protect your love one. You can run, but when your love one is in trouble, you can't run. What's wrong to stand on your ground and protect your love one?

    I still remember my long fist teacher told all his students one day, "It's wrong to fight without a good reason. It's also wrong to avoid fighting when you have a good reason."

    Without the spirit of "δΎ  (Xia) - chivalrous", the MA training is meaningless.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Protecting loved ones can work the other way round though.

    When my wife was pregnant we were having a meal sat outside a restaurant when a rather dramatic fight broke out; a car window punched out, two blokes go at it while the wife of one screams... in the past I probably would have stepped in, but at the time my concern was to keep myself fit and free of injury because my wife really needed my help. So I stayed sat down eating my pizza and let other people deal with it.

    Is that chivalrous, or craven? I think it can be a grey area sometimes.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If you love your wife more then you love a stranger, then your still protecting your loved ones, plus the stranger still had people looking out for them.
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Honestly, the big concern about self defence I've had since having kids is how to stop a toddler wandering into the road if a fight breaks out!

    If I see someone being attacked by a busy road: sorry, it's more important my kid doesn't get run over, you're on your own!

    If I'm attacked? I'm not likely to out run a mugger with a toddler under my arm, but I also don't want to take my eyes off my child or let them run off... it's a pickle!

    Good job I live somewhere with neither busy roads or muggers now! :D
    Dead_pool likes this.
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    the problem is if everybody think like that, nobody will protect that stranger.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I do agree with you, and if no-one was ever willing to step in and help someone in need then all this advice about running to a crowded place would be entirely worthless!

    However, sometimes people might not be in a position to help, if they are injured, if the odds are overwhelming, if they have vulnerable loved ones with them etc.. They can still phone the police, shout for help and such, but they shouldn't be shamed for not physically intervening.

    In the example of the fight I witnessed above, whilst I didn't intervene, I did observe. Had I seen one of them at risk of serious injury, or if the friends of the aggressor had joined in, I would have changed my plan. As it was, they fought like textbook untrained people: a couple of ineffective punches followed by rolling on the ground not knowing what to do. It only took about 10 or 20 seconds for about a dozen blokes to pile out of a nearby pub and break up the fight, so I didn't feel bad about my actions at all (well, I must have felt a bit bad, or I wouldn't be justifying it to strangers!).
  18. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    My Sifu talks about varying factors with regards to "self" defense actually including defense of others. The good and the bad. The way one can help or it can backfire.

    Actually it often comes up with regards to whether to run away or not. He has brought up how sometimes, one will decide to stay and fight if family can't get away with you. Examples have been children, pregnant wives, and elderly parents or grandparents who can't run.

    He has also brought up stepping in and defending strangers. I remember one example where he was much younger and he thought he was preventing a woman from being hit by her boyfriend/ husband. He verbally came to her aid. But he was ready to physically defend her if need be. It was out in public and he didn't know the couple. Only to have the woman defend her guy and yell at my him. It was an example of how one can think you are doing the right thing, only to have it backfire on you.
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  19. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    There is an uncomfortable truth we may have to face when it comes to self protection and that is that sometimes you'll need to walk away.

    We know the rules (for want of a better term) may change if we are protecting family, the young etc, who are with us, but at the same time it may be those very people you need to get home to.

    As we know getting involved in domestic arguments can go wrong very quickly and it's the same with groups.

    In order to protect yourself, on occasion you may need to avoid getting involved. As David has said it's possible the best thing you can do is call the police and not get involved physically.

    I would have thought the guys would find this harder to take, as we all feel as though we should be the protector.

    I often think about the heroes we see on the news. The people who dive into raging rivers to save an animal, or person who has fallen in.

    They put their own life at risk to save others.

    What if that was me and I chose not to jump in? How bad would I feel thinking I could have made a difference?

    Did I put my own welfare first, was that selfish, or was it the right thing to do, as I could have also died.

    In first aid they teach DR ABC.

    The D stands for danger. before anything else is it safe for you to continue?

    I don't have the answer and believe it's down to the individual, the circumstances and I bet the same person who dived into the river today may not do so tomorrow, as something will tell them not to.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Definitely, it's always a risk/cost analysis, I'm rarely anywhere now that violence occurs, and when I am, I'm with family who need looking after, so my first priority is them, if the situation looks like i can help others without risking them, I'd help, but it depends on the situation, a child being snatched is a very different situation to a couple arguing....
    David Harrison and Simon like this.

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