Just a thought, would anyone be interested in making a text book / video instructional DVD of the Kuk Sool 4th - 5th - and above curriculum? I have already started to make Belt to Belt Text books, work books and instructors teaching manuals which include everything from stances, forms, techniques, hand strikes, leg strikes, falling, history, etiquette, plus a lot more. I have them up to 1st degree at this time and working on 2nd now. I would like to know if anyone would like to help on the 4th Dan and up books. I know, I know what I know, but others may see something I forgot or could explain better. I have 2 versions I am working on. One for Adults that have more details and one for juniors with cartoon pictures and less detail. chime in :evil:
This is an interesting notion, except perhaps for those instructors who think that teaching such an intricate MA to kids is a big waste of time. Siphoning out the hardcore "rip their guts out" stuff so that it's more palatable for children doesn't seem like such a terrible thing to do, however, and therefore using cartoon characters would probably be the best way to tackle making instructional manuals that kids would actually want to consult (who remembers Hodori/Hosuni?). I agree with the old adage that a picture's worth 1000 words, and continuing with that concept, it therefore follows that video must be the ultimate method for presenting information of an instructional nature. But a lot of people obviously think this too, as it seems that every well-known master of kuk-sool is out there hawking their own personal line of DVDs covering the ins & outs of this remarkable TKMA (not that there's anything wrong with that). Making a quality instruction manual (or even a reference manual) is a much more labor intensive project IMO, and why you don't see too many of this sort of thing available (the outdated & hard-to-find KSW textbooks produced by In Sun Seo, the current WKSA textbooks [which won't sell vol. 3 to "outsiders"], and Dr. Kimm's Kuk Sool Classic, are about the extent of it). I don't know what HRD has available for its clientele, but some kuk-sool folks may not view the two arts as being similar enough to even consider looking in that direction. Don't get me wrong, as not making a DVD would be remiss in this day & age, but I do like the idea of producing a written document (or documents) to aid & assist those wanting to study kuk-sool in depth. Just so people are aware, I happened to see this thread within an hour of it being posted here on MAP, and I immediately phoned tulsa to speak with him in person about collaborating on this project. Although not credited, I was responsible for numerous edits to the current volumes produced by WKSA, and am therefore intimately familiar with what's involved in communicating all the information in an easy-to-follow format. So hopefully the kuk-sool community may soon have a new resource for getting their hands on some decent written documentation WRT learning certain details, training drills, teaching tips, etc.
What about the excellent "HAPKIDO • Traditions • Philosophy • Technique" by Marc Tedeschi? Apart from the pictures being a little smaller than ideal, I have not seen anything from WKSA (for example) to compare – or even come close for that matter!
I couldn't say, Pugil, as I've not had the privilege of seeing Mr. Tedeschi's book, despite always hearing nothing but good/great reviews. But notice that I didn't mention Dr. Kimm's "Hapkido Bible" (which I also haven't seen), and as I understand it, the content is practically identical to his "Kuk Sool Classic." You see, I wasn't trying to reference books which cover SIMILAR arts to kuk-sool, but rather books which ACTUALLY cover kuk-sool. I only made a passing remark about HRD because some people view it & kuk-sool as "same product, different name" (although HRD has *morphed* considerably since its emergence in the 1960's - as has kuk-sool) and I further added the caveat that I was unaware of that particular MA organization's offerings as far as textbooks are concerned. Although the similarities between kuk-sool & HKD are undeniable, I have always viewed them as being different enough that presenting them as such doesn't require a special distinction (i.e. people can distinguish the differences easily enough without having them pointed out). OTOH, I have no problem with identifying kuk-sool as a derivative of HKD, as I see it as being based on HKD with some additional bits & pieces - and therefore it's structured slightly different).
Just curious...how close is Dr. Kimm's Kuk Sool book to the 4th & 5th Dan curriculum currently taught in KSW? UnknownKJN, or anyone know?
Different but the same. If you have Dr Kimm's book you will see allot of differences all the way through. This does not mean it is wrong but I do not know if it is just "Old School (well before my time)" or just wrong. I use all the books I own to understand all the principles of the techniques. So is Dr. Kimm's book different than what is taught now... YES! All of it NO! :evil:
First, let me say that tulsa answered the question put forth by Convergencezone adequately & concisely. But since Cz kinda/sorta aimed the question at me, I feel as though I ought to honor his request (I didn't do so sooner, because I was busy ITRW). Second, since Dr. Kimm's "Kuk Sool Classic" doesn't contain any info on hyeong, it's an *incomplete* resource for anyone looking to learn stuff taught at the upper ranks. I already confided that I don't own a copy of Dr. Kimm's "Hapkido Bible" but the truth is that I don't own a copy of any of his books. I have seen (and thoroughly read) his "Kuk Sool Classic" however, and therefore I am qualified to answer Cz's question, despite the fact that tulsa already did so (quite admirably, BTW). As mentioned by tulsa, there are a few variances but as I remember it, most of them occur within the upper end of the curriculum. This is to be expected since most of the *tinkering* that was subsequently carried out by the WKSA in modifying the curriculum, took place in the black belt (yudan;유단) & upper black belt (godan;고단) sections. There may be some differences in the color belt section (yugeup;유급), but since I'm working straight from memory, please bear with me... I don't recall any, and if there are some variances in this section, they're probably of a minor degree. Even the more pronounced differences, which are clearly evident in the sections covering the advanced ranks, aren't all that major (IMO) but I wouldn't classify them as negligible either. The types of things that stuck out for me, are things like the order being different, or how many techniques are depicted for a particular set (e.g. only showing 5 or 7 techniques whereas WKSA shows 10 for the set). That's not to say that some of the stuff is COMPLETELY different, because it is, but someone once complained to me about a set in Dr. Kimm's book being way off kilter when compared to the WKSA method, and yet I was able to identify the majority of the techniques as being the same (just in a jumbled order), with only one or two being significantly different. You have to realize that once people start fiddling around with this stuff, that sort of thing is to be expected (referring to a jumbled sequence). The bottom line is that someone groomed by the Suh clan and someone who learned entirely from Dr. Kimm's book, would have more similarities than differences. I don't think that Dr. Kimm deliberately tried to be misleading, rather I feel that a certain amount of mistrust was always harbored by In Hyuk Suh in dealing with Kimm, and perhaps the *proper* methods WRT the upper end of the curriculum were never actually revealed, or were purposely distorted. The other explanation is that when the WKSA organization was smaller, that a greater *creative license* was granted WRT the execution of the material, and now that WKSA has grown to be quite large, the reins have been drawn in tighter & tighter, so that instead of teaching a "principle" and allowing someone to personally interpret it for themselves, they're expected to mimic a detailed execution EXACTLY as it was shown to them, with no allowance for differing body types, etc. (and sometimes, without the comprehension of the underlying principles involved - LOL). If focusing entirely on the 4th & 5th dan material, I'd have to say that in the case of Kimm vs. Suh, that more differences than similarities occur. This doesn't mean that what's shown in Dr. Kimm's book is unsuitable, inept, or otherwise useless, it's just not the same as what WKSA teaches for these ranks.
I have also seen Master He Young Kimm's "Kuk Sool Classic". IIRC, his Maek Chi Gi and Maek Cha Gi techniques have some different hyul targets, thus omitting some that we use and adding others, also creating a different order. There are some odd inconsistencies which would support the theory that he may not have been shown the entire curriculum and had thus been forced to make some inferences, such as having a very rudimentary introduction to Pyung Soo (not showing the strike points), while having a detailed set for Chul Sa Jang (showing the strike points), which is a more advanced set. The entire Jahp Ki set is also curiously absent, unless this set was not developed until after he left the WKSA. And he presents Mok Jo Reu Gi from a standing position. In the book's defense, despite having black and white photography throughout, the pictures are large, clear, and relevant (in terms of viewpoint and angles). If you can get past the discrepancies and differences in technique order, then the book is really a useful reference IMO.
he has the double pressure point set, though. im not sure how important ssang ji-ap sul is, but one theory we must hold dear in this curriculum is that more information is better. pretty cool book, i have a copy myself, but it is difficult to use as a reference, as i still learning a syllabus that is a little different than his. for example, in each the basic shoulder throw (ap eui bok su #6 for us at yangs martial arts) we share the same footing and hip alignment, but: 1) we grab the shirt closer to the chest. we then dig by twisting into the shirt. once our wrist is in good alignment, we are good to go. 2) master suh(in the dvd) gets in the armpit with a ridge hand. 3) master kim puts his wrist damn near hyeop baek. in the latter technique im assuming he wants more leverage against the opponents elbow. i think its a great variation of the shoulder throw, as most of our variances attempt to control the elbow from the outside
I don't have his book in front of me now, but I thought that Dr. Kimm's order lined up with this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5HtrRSmK3o"]Maik Chi Ki - Gene Gause #7‏ - YouTube[/ame]
[edit] Damn you, Jayhawk! You beat me to the reply... [end edit] If I had to guess, I'd bet that the techniques shown by Dr. Kimm for maek chigi/chagi more closely depict what can be seen in the Gene Gause YouTube clips showcasing the basic elements of the art and starring In Hyuk Suh. I'm pretty sure this old footage was actually filmed by Dr. Kimm (or for him in the instances where he's in front of the camera) in order to help learn the kuk-sool methods. FWIW, the current teachings of WKSA is not how I originally learned the sets for maek chigi/chagi, having first been exposed to the *new/current* version when introduced to the *red book* published by In Sun Seo. But since I mentioned the Red Book, I'll also take the trouble to point out that the 20-technique set known as "Jahp Ki" (which you say is missing from Dr. Kimm's book), is plainly shown in the Red Book which I believe came out prior to Kimm leaving the WKSA (although the timing WAS fairly close). What you have to realize is that in the Red Book, Jahp Ki is squeezed between Too Ki & Bang Too Ki (about brown-belt level), even though the WKSA later moved this set to the cho-dan syllabus (FYI- the Red Book erroneously spells Too Ki as "Twoo Ki" and Jahp Ki as "Japh Ki"). The fact that this set was something omitted from my initial introduction to the under black belt curriculum, doesn't surprise me to learn that it isn't included in Kimm's "Kuk Sool Classic." I think that Dr. Kimm was led to believe his efforts in producing a definitive kuk-sool textbook would be rewarded, but his only consolation (and compliment) had to come from Dr. Joo Bang Lee and not from In Hyuk Suh (as related on page 9 of 12, in the grandmaster's biography located on the hanmudo.com website). One of the major differences between Dr. Kimm's book, the current WKSA offerings and other MA books about HKD that I've seen, when compared to the Red Book (and all of it's various iterations) is that the first Red/Blue/Black textbooks published by WKSA didn't include a "close-up" view highlighting the pinnacle aspect for each technique (usually shown in a circle-cropped photo). FWIW, the concept of a "circle-cropped, close-up view" isn't evident in the 3rd volume produced by WKSA, and whether it's because this volume covers black-belt material (and black-belts are supposedly better equipped to recognize what's important) or because by the time WKSA got around to making this volume they had been accused of "copying" someone else's format and therefore decided to abandon this particular depiction in their photo sequences, is unknown. It's just something I happened to notice, and I rather like it as an additional "teaching tool."
Just realize, SsangKall, that what's shown for Ssang Ji Ap Sul in Dr. Kimm's book, isn't anywhere close to what's currently taught by WKSA for this set. :thinking:
sweet... is it anything like the pressure point demonstrations by master suh on the mulleted and mustached black belt whilst everyone is kneeling(talking about dvd)?
Sorta/kinda. And FYI, that "mulleted and mustached black belt" was none other than Ken Duncan. :yeleyes:
but on the subject of a book, in our style master course is more of a study on esoteric aspects of martial techniques. i often hear master yang teaching kyeok pa hyeong and under via correct motion, third through fourth dans (while they are learning the three sam bang chos) about what the movements mean, bridging/transitioning and how to breathe/time movements. master course students are taught through concepts that are pretty abstract to most, like hyeols and 5 element stuff. while tedeschi's book is always on my coffee table, i find that the sections regarding anatomy and physiology could have easily gotten more... technical. theories and concepts are only dabbled in, and as a resource for master level material it is lacking depth
Post #15 strikes a fairly relevant chord for me, WRT to the upper ranks being full of abstractions as well as the need for an interactive interface to help ensure you're on the right track. Accomplishing all of this simply requires that the details for some of the stuff needs to be written in archetypal "direction-giving" fashion. What I mean by this, can easily be explained by bringing to mind getting GOOD directions, when trying to find some location you're unfamiliar with, as opposed to getting BAD directions. In the days before GPS tracking systems supplying you with turn-by-turn updates, getting from point A to point B was much easier if in addition to street names, distances to travel on each leg, and other things folks now associate with the likes of Google-map or MapQuest type directions, using landmarks to help keep track of where you were going without straying off-course as well as saying things like "if you see XXX then you've gone too far" are the sort of things which I always used to discern GOOD directions from BAD directions. Granted, this method of relating information is more complicated than simply stating how to accomplish a given task, but outlining pitfalls even if they're never encountered, is just a matter of identifying a comprehensive roadmap for readers to follow (e.g. it's easy to explain how to make a fist so that your fingers are properly protected when making impact with a punch, but detailing how to condition your hands for iron-palm techniques is precarious at best, since it's such a long, drawn-out process, where each step depends on successfully completing the previous step before continuing with the procedure). One of the things that master-ranked individuals are supposed to be knowledgeable about, is MA history. However I don't feel as if a master-course instruction manual needs to REWRITE every MA history book ever written (in compilation form), when citing a few publications (i.e. a "reading list") would most likely do the trick. Let's not mistake learning materials used for progression through the ranks with undergoing an actual rank-test and the subsequent promotion based on passing said test. I'm definitely not advocating we abolish the top-down hierarchy in play with TKMA, even though I do happen to disagree with some of the "traditions" that abound. After all, you can only "self-teach" yourself so much, as appropriate feedback from an outside source (preferably your instructor) is necessary to truly make progress.
I think this is a positive start to a worthwhile pursuit. We should continue to discuss in general what we like and don't like about the various martial arts textbooks that are out there, and in so doing, come up with a must-have list for this proposed "Kuk Sool Compendium". Some suggestions of what I would like to see: 1. pressure point charts with all of the targets we actually use. 2. meridian line and number references after each technique that manipulates a pressure point. 3. an exhaustive terminology glossary in both Han Geul and Han Ja (where appropriate), with English definitions, in two parts: alphabetical by English and alphabetical by Han Geul 4. when taking pictures of individual movements of the forms, make sure to get the most relevant angle (Master In Sun Seo's textbook has a few pictures of his back thrown in there), and to have explanations under each one of how to transition to the next movement. 5. suggestions for Geut Soo (finishing techniques). Also, I second the vote for close-up shot bubbles. If the whole book couldn't be photographed in color, then perhaps at least these pictures could, as these would be the last things you would want to have ambiguities created by shadows or lack of contrast. I have noticed that sometimes when the person in the pictures is wearing black pants, it can be difficult to tell from some angles which leg is forward. Likewise with using a belt that doesn't contrast well in Po Bak Sool.
Okay....but in fairness to any number of recognized KMA masters I think its important to state something for the record. The number of KMA practitioners who actually value the sort of depth you are referencing are few and none. Further the amount of "depth" of understanding regarding anything but biomechanics is likewise slim and none. Over the years I have heard a LOT of people clamour for "depth" when what they really want is more novelty (IE. "Show me something I have not seen before.") The fact is that up to a point there is a lot of new stuff and then the new material recycles around with a re-evaluation at a more refined level. At that point the typical practitioner says "oh....but I've seen this already...". Certainly there are people who want to refine what they know but the numbers of them are very small and certainly not enough to justify a written tome on the material. What is suppose to happen is that the highest authorities are suppose to step in and impart this rarified information to those who have earned it through loyalty and dedication. What is being reported is that when people get to this point they find that the highest authorities don't have anything more to offer than encouragement and "Best Wishes". Some fall back on "well, at least give me a better place in the hierarchy, while others simply split off and wend their own way. I hear people talking a very good talk....but as far as the walk goes....well..... Best Wishes, Bruce
You can do these things for yourself. Why not stop laying it on the doorstep of people who are essentially businessmen who will not do something unless there is a profit margin in it for them. If you want these things you can make them for yourself. Or do you need some sort of special recognition (IE "imprimateur") to authenticate your product? Best Wishes, Bruce
