Teri Tom Is An Idiot!

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by hulkout, Oct 22, 2009.

  1. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

    What martial arts do you train in?
     
  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I've studied Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu, Boxing, Doce Pares Eskrima and Jeet Kune Do.
     
  3. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

     
  4. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

    who is your JKD insturctor under?
     
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Strange that you won't name your instructor. Why the need for secrecy?

    I trained under Lee Banda, who is one of Bob Breen's black belts.
     
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You posted this while I was still typing.

    You want to know who my instructor was, but don't want to tell who you train under.
     
  7. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

    o.k then my instructors are Ralph Jones and Paul Finn. It was the Bob Breen academy in Hoxten that pointed me towards Ralph Jones. I am now proud to say there names as they have taught me a tremendous amount about JKD. I have met Bob Breen himself at one of the Guro Dan Inosantos London seminars. He is a very good martial artist I fully respect him. It is these two gentlemen that I have asked about eskrima. I did not say there name in the beginning because I did not want them to get dragged into this. My aim is to educate people to the truth I do not like arguing but there are time when I have to do it. Both my instructors have told me it is pointless to make people see on the internet but I think otherwise but I will educate as gently as possible.
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Dragged into what? There wasn't anything to be dragged into until your first post.

    It seems there is a problem with the truth and I don't particularly care if Bruce did Eskrima.
    Lee Banda did, so I did.
    Once I left Lee Banda I did eskrima elsewhere.
    Now I teach my own system I include Eskrima.

    I can't what difference one persons version of the "truth" will make to me or my students.
     
  9. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

    o.k thats cool my truth is not your truth o.k cool. but in my opinion you need the Jun fan method of gung fu as your basis to fully appreciate the JKD concept or another method of fighting that has the same concepts and principles.
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    How much Ng Ga Kuen do you practice? How much foil? How much Bak-Hoo Pai?

    If you are looking at the arts as ingredients you have to do this

    If however you simply view the "list of 26" as things Bruce had EXPOSURE to then the role is very different. Vunak stated himself kali is the "27th art" added after Bruce's death - listing "escrima" as one of the 26. However, this definition may be erroneous.

    Guro Dan If I recall received his definition of what to call each art from whoever he was learning under. When asked one he said "that's what my instructor called it so so that's what I call it". Chances are it was Ben Largusa or Vilabraile that called it kali...particularly when you read the forward of "The Fillipino martial Arts"

    The second page I scanned shows how the continuation of JKD through FMA is not from Bruce but from a philosophically and mechanically compatible source (one reason many JKD guys now add BJJ is because it emphasizes efficiency in groundwork)

    My own JKD - I am Full Instructor under Harinder Singh and hold the same rank from Paul Vunak - is a mix of lots of elements I have has exposure to. I teach the double hip from Shukokai karate as a part of my curriculum and most in JKD haven't heard of it let alone seen it...but the concept is directly compatible. Having trained under Simons old coach too I can vouch for his pedigree...and Simons words also stand on their own.

    Ap is the continuing voice of reason on these boards and I respect his opinion greatly - he too has a massive amount o experience to draw on and is often a calming influence on me when I go off on one.

    Between the three of us we have about 90 years combined experience and only one of us is actively in JKD...that's me btw....so they have no dog in the hunt.

    For me, if Bruce came back tomorrow and told me what I was doing isn't JKD I would just say "Really? Thanks for telling me" an carry on training exactly the same.

    It's only a name...please don't fuss over it
     
  11. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Excellent post, Hannibal.

    The thing is with this list of 26 is it's not 26 complete arts. It's a handful of arts with some movements or influence from others.

    My JKD has influence from Muay Thai, as Lee Banda was Master Sken's representative in the south east of England.

    I don't claim to be a Muay Thai coach, or to have in any way completed the system, but I do add it as part of my syllabus.

    I have blatantly stolen and entry from Eddie Quinn's Approach system, because it works and I like it.
    I also (and did during teaching this morning) add some Tai Chi mechanics.

    I think if you read the list of 26, you'll see that Bruce had a similar attitude. Maybe if Bruce had written some of his books a few years later the list of 26 would have been a list of 27, or maybe even greater.
     
  12. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

    yes I 100 percent agree with you guys absorb what is useful reject what is useless add what is specifically your own. Like I said before when I become a G1 in Krav maga, I will then become instructor in Jun fan, inosanto kali, possibly silat, I would like to try out what the Sikhs do, have found a few classes in shepards bush. but will construct my progression and display to everyone when I reach that stage.
     
  13. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Much of this is true. The term eskrima comes from the Spanish word esgrima, which is used to describe Western fencing in Spanish. Whether the term is derived from the word "skirmish" is a controvery in and of itself. But it's certainly an explanation I've heard, and even used, before myself. Likewise, I've heard that the term kali comes from the conjuction of "kamut" and "lihok," the two terms you referenced. Again (and as with many terms associated with FMA), this is the subject of much controversy. Look at other sources outside of Guro Dan's lineage, and you'll see a lot of alternate theories. Guro Dan himself freely admits that he's never been to the Philippines. So I think it's important that we include sources that are actually there in assessing the term, given that it's supposed to be some sort of Mother Art. Eskrimadors from the PI will likely tell you that the term kali is seldom found over there, and that eskrima and arnis are far more common names.

    Again, do your research from other sources as well. When I saw Guro Dan speak in Washington DC (at the Smithsonian) in 2010, he explained that he used the term kali simply because one of his instructors asked him to. The reason his instructor gave was that eskrima and arnis both point back to the Spanish occupation and aren't indigenous terms (arnis or arnis de mano coming from the Spanish phrase "harness of the hand," meaning "to armour oneself with one's hands).

    Again, I want to emphasize that I have the greatest admiration for Guro Dan. I consider him my strongest influence in martial arts, though I've only met him a handful of times. (Pictured: Guro Dan and a terrible picture of me from the aforementioned lecture in DC)

    [​IMG]

    I have also trained with one of his long-time students here in the States. But even Guro Dan has changed over the years. I've heard the same thing about kali being a more blade-oriented Mother Art. But I've also heard alternate explanations that hold water. Stepping back from this debate we're having for a moment, I implore you that if you're as serious as you say about research, cast a broader net. There are so many terrific sources on the Filipino martial arts.

    Vunak. Moot point.

    I don't necessarily dispute that eskrima is one of the elements of jun fan gung fu. At least, the argument could be made. But bear in mind that Guro Dan was also highly instrumental in the development of jun fan and JKD. His students are naturally going to attribute part of JKD to Guro Dan's input. I certainly would. That doesn't mean that Lee would have said as much. Nor that Guro Dan would have said as much.

    Sure, Bruce Lee filmed Dan Inosanto performing eskrima. My understanding is that Lee encouraged Guro Dan to practice eskrima after meeting him through Ed Parker. (Guro Dan was involved in Parker's American Kenpo at that time.) But that's different from learning it himself.

    Now, we've already established, by direct quote from Guro Dan himself, that he attempted to show Lee double stick, and that Lee didn't appear interested. That's not how I'd describe a formal teaching-learning relationship. You?

    The nunchaku, yes. My understanding is that Guro Dan taught Lee the use of nunchaku. Though I'd contend that teaching someone to twirl nunchaku is a far cry from teaching them an overall art.

    That doesn't follow from anything you've said. The oldest recorded texts we have on Filipino martial arts use the terms eskrima and arnis, or more specialized terms like estokada or pangolisi. The term kali has come into more use over the years, with certain styles switching the terms they use from eskrima or arnis to kali. It's a term I now associate with the proliferation of Filipino martial arts in the West versus an ancient Mother Art.

    Not substantiated

    Introduced yes. Absolutely. Taught? No.

    I believe I answered this above. Vunak.

    And how long do you think it would take a talented martial artist like Lee to learn to do that? Fifteen minutes? Half an hour, tops? If you studied something for, say, a month, would you then claim to have learned the art?

    That's not a good gauge for this claim.

    I look forward to hearing his response. I have the utmost respect for Guro Dan. And I'm genuinely interested to hear his response.

    Clearly, you take this stuff seriously. That being the case, I really would love to see you take a more balanced approach to your research. There are so many great sources of information on Filipino martial arts. Don't limit yourself. That's an idea that ought to ring true with any JKD scholar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  14. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

    o.k two things 1) Bruce lee influenced Guro Inosanto in thai boxing, wing chun and silat. not kali. It was his uncle who was an eskrimador who told Guro Inosanto about eskrima. As for teaching eskrima to BL I will still stick with what I said before GDI (I feel taught) BL eskrima. they way you strike with a nunchuku is the same way you strike with a stick. As for researching FMA I could not care less I trust Inosantos word and that is all. What I am interested in is the roots of combat. and in my opinion the Jun fan method of gung fu has all the basic movements and weapons that one needs to expand from. for example the Loy pok in Jun fan is exactly the same as over the bridge in silat and the same as the guntin in kali and sinwali. The butterfly in wing chun is also similar. if you look at the jab in boxing it is the same as the punch in karate but the guard is down. the thai kick if you look at shoalin san da sparring they do the same kick. A punch is a punch a kick is just a kick. If you really listen to GDI's talk and read between the lines you will see his philosophical messages. It is always JKD message![​IMG]
     
  15. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

  16. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    As someone who has studied boxing I would argue that point.

    For a start the stance is completely different, so the punch sets off with different mechanics from the get go.
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    You are being myopic AND dogmatic - the very antithesis of JKD

    Guro Dan is perhaps my single biggest idol in martial arts...but he is not infallible.

    Where do you believe he influenced Sijo in Muay Thai? I have the transcripts of where Sijo was talking about it btw

    You are concentrating on the finger far too much
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You mean "there are some strikes that share the same lines of attack", surely.

    I for one am not about to try an abanico or curbada strikes with a pair of chucks.

    The non bolded section is fine, I'd trust Dan's word over mine, but the bolded bits concern me.

    That sounds like someone who is "bound" by someone's word, and that's not what Bruce would have wanted.
     
  19. 1fightforright2

    1fightforright2 Valued Member

    right for goodness sakes this is laughable I am not going to reply here again but my video stays. The purpose of this video is to clear up all these misconceptions of JKD and that is all. I am sad that you just do not understand. Maybe Bruce lee was right JKD is not for everyone.

    I have done karate when I was young, at the age of 20 I have experienced Boxing, jujitsu, BJJ, Ninjitsu, Inosanto kali, Pencak silat, MMA, Shaolin kung fu , and thai chi, thai boxing, krav maga and last but not least Jun fan JKD.

    I feel that I know what I am on about. but seriously you guy have nakard me I am mentally exhausted. I am on my own path and that is final.

    Masked swearing is against the terms of service you agreed upon. Please review them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    That's about as far from the JKD approach as it gets. You are avoiding discussion and laying down a dogmatic approach - making a new form of "classical mess"

    A Jeet Kune Do man who says JKD is exclusively JKD is simply "not with it." He is still "hung up" on his own self-closing resistance, anchored down to reactionary pattern and, naturally, is still bound by another modified pattern and can move only within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that the truth exists outside of all molds and patterns. An awareness is never exclusive.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013

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