Teaching self defense?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Ferran, Jan 29, 2007.

  1. Ferran

    Ferran Valued Member

    I was thinking (kind of sickness I get now and then; I'm trying to have it healed at the University) along the lines of Self Defense and... More or less, any martial artist has some advantage, when in a threatening scenario, over the common citizen. Fitness, reflexes, confidence... More or less, whole or part.

    Now, time goes on and said martial artist reaches the level where ze teaches (or helps teach) some class, maybe sets a school... And, one day, someone approaches about self-defense classes.

    You see, I live in Spain. Our society (specially if you don't deal with drugs) is quite peaceful and firearms are in a middle ground that would infuriate both the NRA and Labour Party. We do have punks, though, nastier every year. We do not have many army vets or anything (specially not vets you would trust), and after 40 years of military rule, their reputation is kind of tarnished in many places. So... you are a martial artist, you have little knowledge of real violence and someone is asking _you_... OK, you have more knowledge of violence than most, you have a trained body, but... you have to counsel someone who's going to bet serious injury, maybe death, in whatever you can teach hir in 4 weeks, if as long.

    So, what do you do?
     
  2. kiseki

    kiseki beating shadows since '06

    firstly, I would like to hear it a bit clearer, as I don't quite understand you.

    if you want the person to protect them self, I would direct them to www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

    I would steer clear of the standard KS stuff, 4 weeks isn't enough time. I'm not even taking the art for that purpose, and I in fact enjoy forms MUCH more than techniques.
     
  3. Ferran

    Ferran Valued Member

    Sorry. In a shorter form, I mean: what do you teach when you're short on time (4 weeks was just making my point), your alumni are not into MAs and you just want to have someone able to win some seconds against a common attack? No guns, preferably no knives, but probably many to one and/or short distance.

    Reading it now, since I couldn't sleep.

    [EDIT] "Animal" Young. Found something about him the other day... Haven't formed an opinion, yet.

    Precisely. The path to self defense trough MAs is a long one. Effective, but long. Even techniques, by themselves, offer little in SD (personally, I see techniques as shorter forms with feedback).
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2007
  4. Silentmonk

    Silentmonk The Blue Donkster!!

    Ok firstly what are you asking??????

    Have you been asked to do this?? as in teach a self defence programme? or are you actually asking how can I make my training more selp defence orientated???? because at the moment its not.

    If its the first one then if you have to ask I wouldn't even consider it because 4 weeks isn't even enough time for you to read up the knowledge third hand.

    If you only have 4 weeks I wouldn't teach self defence at all try teaching self protection. Again if you have to ask the difference you don't really need to be teaching people about it.

    If you're insisting on teaching someone something to look after themselves thats going to work in 4 weeks then ........... don't teach, but perfect .....that means, whatever you teach you will only have say 8 hours with them, whereas they have had their whole life. Whatever they would have done initially before the course they will still do when they panic, and thats absolutely guaranteed I'm afraid, so you need to perfect what they would do, not try to change it. The repition and muscle memory process over 4 weeks is NOT long enough.

    So concentrate on target hardening and just reducing the number of times they will ever need it. Try to change the way they think about their everyday lifes and how to make them less prone to be a victim. Again if you don't know how to then steer clear, making someone paranoid is not a great way of making them safe.

    I really could go on and on and I wouldn't consider myself an expert in this field at all. I have seen lots of people who know less making a good living from teaching self defence classes though and to be honest if they can live with themselves then thats fine. Remember if anyone ever gets attacked that you taught,then you are responsible for their safety. Its your fault, and the buck stops at you, so you better be sure you gave them the best knowledge possible or just stay right away. If you have any conscience at all you will be living with the outcome your entire life.

    Its a very simple subject, but requires a lot of very in depth study and if anyone just thinks they can do it because they have a high rank in a traditional martial art. I beg to differ, but thats just my 2 cents anyway.

    Oh and happy new year MAP. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2007
  5. Ferran

    Ferran Valued Member

    Hi, Silentmonk; nice to read you (Ha! Score 1 for the Reanimation Squad! ;) )

    No, I'm not planning to teach SD any time soon (soon means, at least, a couple of years). Several things made me think about it, and SD courses tend to be tight. So, I thought I'd better be prepared, I started to think what I'd do if I ever had to and... among other things, I freaked out. Me? Teaching SD? Being responsible of someone's survival? And then: Ok, not me, but who?

    Thanks.
     
  6. Buckeye Blue

    Buckeye Blue Valued Member

    Ferran,

    You are presenting a hypothetical situation? In reality you are really curious about what you should concentrate on to prepare you for such a situation? That is a much different question what the respondents thought you were asking, and is probably a little easier to answer.

    With all due respect to KSW, I don't see it as the most practical method for teaching people self defense, afterall it is a "traditional" martial art that emphasises more than just combat skills. A dedicated full year practitioner of KSW would probably be fine in such a situation. However, many arts (Krav, some forms of Sambo, (U.S.) Marine Corps Martial Arts System, other law enforcement systems) teach such skills very quickly and a person should be several times more competent at defending themselves after a few weeks of training than they where when they began training. I would recommend researching these systems to see which aspects of each correspond to what you have learned in your own training. You could probably do so without joining any particular club.

    Otherwise, your best bet is signing up for a self defense class. Watch out for the fly by night courses that give the industry a bad name. Look for one that is associated with an existing martial arts club.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2007
  7. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Actually, I thought this was a pretty good question. Most of what I know and would teach about self-defense, I already posted in the earlier topics.

    Some of you may know, Coyote and I are advisors for the high school youth at our church. Earlier this month, the youth from our district had a two-day sleepover convention, where they put on workshops and had speakers, as well as generally hung out. One of the youth offered a workshop on self defense.

    I intended to go to it, just to keep an eye on things. Some of the discussions here had tuned me in to potential liability issues and such.

    I ended up sleeping through it, but Coyote did make it, and I hope he'll post some of his observations later today.
     
  8. Ferran

    Ferran Valued Member

    I'm Yellow Belt, people! Ok, previous experience and such... almost 15 years ago, with not-so-superb instuctors. Yes, it's hypothetical.

    USMC training for SD... The Corps does not _defend_ (except embassies). I'm aware you can have combat training in quite short time... but. BUT. As far as trusting MA schools... Hum... I've seen some schools in Spain, now & then. Quite a few instructors. I'd trust, right now, 2-4 people (I'd have to check a couple of things, first), in a SD scenario.

    Thanks, even if we disagree.
     
  9. Buckeye Blue

    Buckeye Blue Valued Member

    Ferran, thank you for stressing the hypothetical nature of your question as it was not clear from your original post. Its the cost of communicating over the internet.

    Now let me clarify my post. I was not referring to boot camp/advanced ground training of the US Marine Corps. In particular I was not talking about what you mentioned as "combat training".

    I am specifically referring to the "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program". It is (among other things) a hand to hand martial art system created by the USMC--it even has its own colored belt rankings, tan through black. In that regard it is similar to many traditional martial arts systems, but is designed to be practical in the same way as Krav Maga or Sambo.

    Ember raises a good point, there was a relatively animated discussion about a similar topic a few months back. I can't quite remember the topic name.

    Incidentally, I know several Marines who would be puzzled by your Marines don't defend comment as the lore of the USMC is filled with defensive actions.
     
  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    If you really want to keep people safe with such a limited amount of training it should almost all be focussed on target hardening and awareness/avoidance as a previous poster mentioned, then confrontational/conversational skills. "Techniques" as most people think of them should be low on your list in such a short period of training.

    Mitch
     
  11. Ferran

    Ferran Valued Member

    Hum... As I knew it, the USMC martial training was... calling it hard would leave you with no name for other things. And color belts requirements included military rank...

    Ok, I re-read the Wiki, and I was mixing in "Linear". Sorry.

    Just shows what I know of them. Sorry, again. Still, my perception is that they _can_ defend. What they _do_ is kick ass. Or have a Tun... ;)

    Oh... Could someone define "target hardening", please? I'm not sure I'm understanding.

    Thanks, all.
     
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I apologise if this post seams rather nagative but my first thought is why do they feel they need self defence and often it is because they do not have strong fighting spirit and are AFRAID that they may be attacked.It is these areas that must be addressed before changes can be made and this can take a looong time. Teaching "techniques" simply slows down their "natural instincts".Even experienced martial artists may find that they do not act instinctively with a martial arts technique when suddenly attacked. To be honest I do not feel that there IS a "quick" way to learn self defence.I do hope that someone someday comes up with a solution.

    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2007
  13. Willow

    Willow Valued Member

    I think there are some things that can be quickly taught that might seem obvious to some, but are not to others - especially those interested in a quickie self-defense lesson. I would look to women's self-defense courses (think man in a big red padded suit) for material. They tend to teach very quick techniques that are usually based upon instinctive moves, but with a bit of refinement.

    Perhaps a discussion of basic targets to focus on: eyes, throat, shins, family jewels, etc. and the best way to strike said targets. Perhaps also mention things NOT to do such trying to hit with a closed fist which will usually hurt them as much as the person they are hitting. Throw in some basic blocks from someone swinging a pad at them if you've got the time just so they will see what it is like for someone to swing at them.

    Thoughts?
     
  14. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member

    When people do not have the time to learn self defense through a MA...this is a perfect program.

    http://www.fastdefense.com/

    Even with a MA background...it is a strong addition to your knowledge. I have gone through it and I learned a lot.
     
  15. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    I'll quote Hapkido master Merrill Jung:

    "It's one thing to present a martial art as something you do, to better yourself - which might also help you in a self-defense situation. It's another to say, 'Do this, this is really going to save you.' That really scares me."

    I know quite a few people who've never taken formal classes to study a martial art, but are just vicious fighters. They're not afraid to hurt people. What's scary is when you have a person with that attitude, but don't behave themselves and have utter disregard for the rights of others. You have to remember, in a true self defense situation (some of which are completely unavoidable) you have to fight for your life. No mercy. No hesitation. Use the tools you have available to you. If one of those tools happens to be a technique you learned, fine. If it's a stick laying on the ground or a pistol in your holster, fine. Remeber there are no rules to follow when your defending yourself outside the ring or dojang. Don't expect your attacker to try to follow any either.
     
  16. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    i agree with jsun, break them before they break you and have no regrets or hesitation in doing so. them or you mentality must be cultivated 1st, then strikes and "relivant" techniques taught second.

    if you are alive, fit and well after the confrontation, then you will have time to worry about your attacker(s) welfare, not before or during said confrontation. otherwise you might not have the luxury of being able to worry.

    change there outlook and priorities 1st, then work with that to produce effective self defence.
     
  17. Ferran

    Ferran Valued Member

    So true...

    Ok. Agreed. Now, _how_ do you teach _that_?
     
  18. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    I'm not sure if it's something you can actually teach someone. I think you have to live through what could be a potentially life threatening experience to learn the reality of violent confrontations. You can tell someone, "Kick your attacker in the groin" or "punch your attacker in the throat", but that's not to say your ever going to get the opportunity to try either technique when defending yourself. I think that's why it's so important to advocate situational awareness as the first step in self defense. Every time I've had to fight someone, and I mean really fight, I've been ambushed. Both physically and emotionally. After it happened a couple of times I just realized it's not always other people that have bad things happen to them. I don't feel victimized, but I feel like I better be on my toes when I go to the pub or go jogging at night. I'm not a violent person and I certainly try to diffuse situations I find myself in that appear to be escalating. However, if your thrown into a fight or flight situation, if you can't run, fight hard. Be ready to step up the violence, but also be ready to deal with the consequences.
     
  19. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Agreed, whole-heartedly. The first two things on my list would be "know where you are" (who's around you, what the mood is, etc.), and "don't look like a victim" (be alert, walk with a purpose, that sort of thing).

    AFTER that, I would remind people that if you cannot avoid a fight, do whatever you can. Be aware of what around you might be used as a weapon. (Did you hear that pilot speech? That's the idea...)

    Like's been said above, I wouldn't try teaching gimmicks and techniques in a quick lesson. I'd go for philosophies, attitudes, how the person is thinking.

    I'm also curious, would like to hear more along the lines of what Koyo said: "why do they feel they need self defence and often it is because they do not have strong fighting spirit and are AFRAID that they may be attacked."
     
  20. Shibby!

    Shibby! Valued Member

    I dont think Kuksool techniques are 100% usefull on their own, accopanied with other things then yes it MAY be usefull, but i certainly wouldnt be going using it.

    I would start with what to use in situations, elbows, knee's, head, etc.

    Teach leg kicks and knee stomps and to ALWAYS keep your hands up.

    Probably also teach, what other people are willing/likely to do.

    Ground fighting is also essential. Cant do anything without it. Even if it isnt Kuksool related. Just somethings to looks out for, and to not get into certain positions.
    i.e Full mount.

    How do you teach that?

    Just get them together and let them bash each other and learn on their own from experiance. Its fine and well telling them and showing them what to do. But if they dont get the practice it wont work.
    Then show and tell them what they did wrong, and start them on it again.

    So basically it will turn into some sort of MMA class. Is it worthwhile? Hell yes!

    Nick
     

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