Teacher punches student

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by benkei, Jun 8, 2011.

  1. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    hmmm.... this actually makes sense, from a legal perspective. the student still needed a good kicking, IF he was indeed guilty of abusive behaviour.
     
  2. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    Bull poo. People don't back someone smaller and weaker into a wall so they can give them a hug and some chocolate milk.
     
  3. Atre

    Atre Valued Member

    Exactly :)
     
  4. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Backing up into a wall without contact from the attacker, and then the "defender" takes the first contact, in certain school systems, This is a case of excessive force.

    A teacher is only allowed to use contact if actual harming contact was made.

    Herelies the exception:

    If said attacker verbally stated that they "WERE" about to do "great" physical harm.

    I know its bull poo, but in the schools system my wife is in, it is designed to make the least contact as possible
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011
  5. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    We don't know what words, or phrases were said from the student

    Again, school authorities would investigate both the background of the teacher and student, to determine who was most likely be the aggressor.

    Still, a teacher is not to make contact unless fearing for great physical harm.

    Could it be possible that the the teacher let go prematurely as she did not want to remain calmer.

    It is very difficult to remain calm for the untrained when someone is in your face, backing you into a wall.

    (My wife's school instructs teachers of the warning of them in their space. I think its a 1 or 2ft rule. Teachers are supposed to put their hands up in a non-attack/non aggressive manner and verbally tell student, in a firm but calm voice to back off)


    We cannot be a "armchair quarterback" thinking that a student should never disrespect a teacher as a biased judgement.


    My wife used to teach grades 6-8, but the students were more disrespectful.

    She had her share of encounters and investigations in the public school system she is employed.

    I, along with a LEO, were once called into a teacher conference to explain about defense and legal force

    From her encounters and investigations, now, my wife will only teach grades 4th or below
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011
  6. Willsy

    Willsy 'Ello love

    It's a strange feeling, as I have just come out of my teen years and high school, but am now studying to be a secondary school maths teacher. My teen years have only just finished so I can still look back and understand what's going through the minds of the kids but soon I'll be expected to deal with it myself.

    I agree with the majority that has been said here, especially the changes that have happened in the mentality of said teenagers. Boundaries have become a lot less clear (IMO) than they were a generation ago, but I think that aside from the kids' environments at home, it's also because of the world changing, becoming more politically correct. The gradual addition of restrictions on the teachers have made for more unruly teens, especially because at that age you're testing the waters. You're looking to see what you can get away with and every time you come across a teacher that isn't a strong person, you become a little more sure of yourself and look for ways to exploit that. It sounds horrible but it's exactly the same as having a puppy that gets to a certain age and starts wandering, peeing, jumping and climbing on the couch if you don't keep it in check. I think I was a bit lucky, I went to an all boys school; the staff were 90% male and so you have role models and usually firm boundaries to follow without the distraction of females to puff yourself up in front of.

    Not all teens are bad though, you go through stages. In general 4th form (year 10, not sure what grade but around 14-15 years old) is the worst, at least IME. But by the time you get to 16, the kids aren't forced to be in school by law and they start to see the world they're about to enter in a new light. In fact, I'd venture that Uni freshers are worse than most 6th and 7th formers! There was a really good book published in the last few years by an NZ woman who went around a number of schools in the country, which detailed and ordered a lot of what I've said, will have to see if I can find it again.

    I disagree with the rule of no contact though, corona put it best, it's bull poo. For a 64 year old woman it's going to be very hard to talk down a 6 foot something young man (and that is what they are no matter what anyone says) in front of his peers with an attitude like what was shown without drastic action and if she did nothing and let herself be put in the corner it would've had a lasting affect on the teens' view of her, they would've simply done it again after they knew she'd back down. But from the sounds of it that was taken into account, since the woman still has her job.


    At this, sure, most teens aren't going to come into a class with automatic respect for the teacher, but if they're truly going to take their education seriously, they need to learn to respect other humans somehow, obviously this teacher hadn't gotten it into him thus far.
     
  7. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    But isn't this the point - a teacher in a classroom has fewer rights than a person on the street. In the UK at least, you only need to fear violence in order to act in self defence, but in the classroom, punching a student in the face because you feared they might attack you will get you into a whole world of hurt.
     
  8. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    I can't work out which side you seem to be on here. Really, a teacher fearing any sory of harm has every right to defend herself. How is anyone supposed to judge the difference betwen the degrees of harm they fear anyway? That's a silly expectation to put on a teacher or anyone. I think this throws something into sharp perspective here - people always say schools are failing kids, but they are failing teachers just as much. Everyone else in society has a right to go to their jobs and feel safe in their working environment, why should teachers be denied this?
     
  9. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Can't wait for the rematch :evil:
     
  10. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    Screw that! Sorry but I'm going to go black and white on this one. I'm normally always ready to respect that most issues are complex and nobody is 100% right or wrong...but I don't believe that's the case here.

    She is smaller and weaker. A smaller weaker person should never be given the responsibility of holding back force against a bigger stronger person who can do him or her damage. If she'd waited to actually be hit, grabbed, etc before fighting back she might have not had a chance to fight back.
     
  11. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    @Willsy: I'm about your age (21) and I think a lot of teenage problems are socially manufactured. Of course, some of it is lack of life experience, and some of it is hormones, especially in girls where once a month even a lot of calm reasonable ones are going to feel aggressive and have less ability to dial down that aggression or stress. But no way does that account for most problems IMO. I'd hazard a guess a lot of it is how they are treated. They are on the receiving end of a lot of hypocrisy. They have to respect a myriad of rules made by other people, but are rarely allowed to assert any boundaries of their own. They go into school and deal with teachers who will chew them out for swearing and then refer to the football field surface as 's**t', or punish them for chewing gum in class then unwrap some Spearmint of their own and start chewing. They deal with parents who flip out if they complain about anything, saying they should 'think of the starving children in Africa', but will be the first to throw a fit because their daughter doesn't want to shave her legs or their healthy well behaved son got his nose pierced.

    I'm lucky my mother was one of the sane reasonable ones. I'd have murdered her in her sleep if she'd taken the 'I own you, and you'll do whatever I say just because' route.

    I'm not saying teens or young adults should have more room to do what the hell they like, but some mutual respect would be in order, and more consistency.
     
  12. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    THIS! i have always managed to establish good mutual treatment with most of my teachers, barring some notable exeptions despised even by their co-workers (who were also mistreated by said exceptions), but the onus should be on the school staff to be able to either be in the students' shoes and think a little, or to at least try to raise the students' level reasonably to a point where mutual comprehension is possible, if the students themselves are unable or unwilling to cooperate with the teachers. the basis for teaching is TRUST, and if neither students nor teachers are willing to make concessions in order to trust each other, there will be neither learning nor behaviour in a school, although unfortunately, in "problem" cases, from what i know it tends to be so that it is the other authority figures in someone's life that screw them up first, so that in some cases it is simply impossible for anyone except very unique teachers to control a student via respect. what we saw in the video is nothing more than what happens when such a connection fails to form, and goes WAY beyond school dynamics and into the realm of one human being attacking another, weaker one, who then defends herself in the only way she sees how. yes, legally speaking, she struck first, and might face consequences for that, but in the grand scheme of things, that is irrelevant.
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    This would be fundamentally against the wording and nature of UK law (thanks to jwt for clarifying that a couple of weeks ago).
    For such a thing to be true it would make teachers beholden to a different law to the rest of us (which I don't think is the case).
    Under UK law contact (even a pre-emptive strike) is allowed to prevent a crime.
    In this case it would be preventing an assault on the teacher (if she perceived such a thing to be imminent).
    The body language, size difference and, probably, preceding behaviour and language (none of which we see) of the male would make such an assumption reasonable in the circumstances (IMHO).

    Now it could be argued that a teacher would end up with less hassle if they let a pupil hit them than if they defend themselves.
    And that would probably be true.
    Let the kid hit them = bloody nose and loss of respect around the school but maybe they can get the kid expelled/excluded
    Hit the kid first = months of legal and union wrangling, kid probably stays in the school, aggro from parents and potentially loss of job or career prospects (every teacher having a record of such things).

    And that just sounds barmy to me.
     
  14. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    With PASmith. Look, it's very simple. She is in danger. She is the smaller, physically weaker one. She should not have to put herself in further danger so she can say he hit first.
     
  15. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Smaller yes but not necessarily lighter or weaker
     
  16. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    What the devil? Unless she's a powerlifter or some such, she's going to be weaker than a kid who's 6ft tall and whose blood is freaking viscous with testosterone.
     
  17. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Not to mention the teacher is 63 years old.
     
  18. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I think people are missing the point. Legally, it is a perfectly reasonable response, both in the UK and the US. Professionally, it can be suicide. You can lose your job and become entirely unemployable without breaking the law. In many ways criminal charges would be less damaging.

    If one thing should be very clear, this is not a simple situation.
     
  19. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    That's probably the main point but some 15 or 16 year old kid thats never done a days work in his life isn't necessarily particually strong either and judging her on gender and age alone might be doing her an injustice
     
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    We understand entirely, however that situation IS illegal, and if teacher's challenge it then it will have to change. It is true that people in public service professions are their own worst enemy, typically hampered by social baggage about perceptions of their role.
     

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