TCMA and the difference between dueling and self-defense

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by geezer, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    One topic that comes up a lot when you talk to traditional martial artists vs competition-oriented martial artists is that there is a difference between the strategy and tactics of an art of self-defense as compared to that of highly trained athletes dueling in a competition.

    First-off, let me make it clear that I'm not beating the old dead horse of which is better. Most any tough, conditioned competitive fighter is going to be able to apply his skills in a self-defense situation too. And kick some booty. At least if weapons, multiple attackers, and vehicular assault isn't involved. (The last is my personal favorite if I'm ever confronted by an enraged MMA champion). Just run him over with my truck. If I don't have a truck? Well the run part still applies.

    No, what I'm getting at here is that there are plenty of ordinary people getting into the martial arts to stay fit, and be "able to take care of themselves" if they get into a bad situation. I'm talking regular people here. Not hyper-conditioned, full time athletic competitors, but reasonably fit, determined people, men and women of various ages and walks of life. These are the people my art Wing Chun... heck, that most traditional martial arts are supposed to be able to help.

    Honestly, we don't accomplish this by relying on "super deadly" techniques, or mystical "chi" powers. Of course we try to develop good solid techniques with speed, power, timing, focus and attitude. Those are universal. But we also try to develop a strategy for applying what we know, and it seems to me that this strategy is the real difference between competitive application and survival application.

    Competition is about equalizing external variables and creating a "level playing field" with weight classes, rules and so forth so that two relatively evenly matched competitors engage in a "fair" combat so the best man may win.

    Survival situations imply that the other guy is probably bigger, stronger, tougher, is on his own turf, and fully expects to easily hurt you. It's not fair at all. So can you really teach a person, an ordinary person that is, anything useful that can work in such a situation. I believe you can. And you can do it without competing full contact, doing something as physically grueling as boxing and Muay Thai. Otherwise I wouldn't continue to train MA part-time at age 56. And, I intend to continue for many years to come. Any thoughts?
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah..... Judo. Pretty much designed for everything you just complained about. :D
     
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    This is always an interesting topic. I do believe you can. My original Aikido instructor told me the best form of Aikido was to not be in the bar/parking lot/club/alley when the fight kicked off. It's a funny saying but dead on.

    Situational awareness counts for a lot. It's easy to get myopic on forums about how often people are in altercations (most people aren't) and even if you are an amateur level fighter or competitive in it... when someone wants to put the hurt on you are still going to have your hands full. Fact.

    People love to finger wag TMA's and say 'there are no magic bullets' well the same holds true for them as well. Just because they train twice a week for an hour isn't some sort of magic bullet. Every day I guys who work on the road projects who've never trained a day in their life... and fighting any of them would be a grind. Man... all one has to do is get up to the prairie areas in the midwest... you can find bars choc-o-block with tough cowboys who like nothing better than a good punch up. And they don't train anything other than ranch work. Same goes for your old steel mill towns... or working on the docs. There's just tough people out there... and no magic bullets.

    So one of the best things anyone can learn is situational awareness. Some of the RBSD stuff covers it nicely. With some instructors they have a way of instilling it... and then... sometimes I think it's hardwired. Some people have it... some people don't.

    Anywho... interesting topic.
     
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In

    - challenge fight, the entering strategy is important.
    - street fight, to take advantage on "head on collusion" is important.
     
  5. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I think the difference in commitment in attacking also comes into play which is why there are two different types of sparring I engage in:
    1. Fully engaged, continuous onslaught. No stopping. No feeling your opponent out from a distance except for maybe a jab or two as I'm moving into range. The only time my attack stops at all is when the round is over.

    2. Sport fighting, challenge fighting, or as I call it: play. This is where I can outbox if I want, play around, take my time, use the clock, wear down my opponent, throw lighter shots, do things I wouldn't do outside of sparring (like pulling guard and fighting from my back), and overall use a more complex strategy.
     
  6. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    You meant "collision" right? As in getting your attacker to commit and rush you, expecting you to back away. Instead, you explode forward and counterattack relentlessly, with the "collision principle" adding force to your attack. Good on the street the first time, using the element of surprise. Fortunately, one time should be all you need, if you follow through with focused aggression (I think this is also what Sketco was referring to above).

    On the other hand this is exactly the kind of thing that won't work sparring or in the ring, where you are up against an experienced fighter who is expecting your attack. Good example of the difference between the two situations.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    geezer, IMHO, I feel you confuse "duel" with "match". The sport competitions are matches, not duels.

    A duel is... “When two tigers fight, one is injured and one is killed.” -Chinese Proverb.
     
  8. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I think it is very much down to the mindset involved.

    I just posted this on another thread here, but I think the two threads are basically the same discussion:

     
  9. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    Good points. I'm interested in the point made above about "sparring" with contact and non-compliance, but not in a "fair fight or "match" format (to use R.W.'s term), but rather in a self-defense format with attackers and defenders.
     
  10. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Take a peek at this thread:
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105303
     
  11. DontMoveTilUCIt

    DontMoveTilUCIt Valued Member

    There are major differences between competition fighting and street fighting, but as the original poster mentions, this doesnt mean that competition fighters cant handle themselves in the street

    In competition, you will know who you are fighting and conform to set rules. You will approach each other face to face (in the street you could get attacked from the side or behind, and also unexpectedly).

    The level of person you encounter in the competition will usually be equal to yourself, whereas an attacker in the street could be of any level

    In the street, you may find that people use objects (knives, stools, pool cues, etc)

    Generally there are techniques and tactics that will give a person an advantage over a dangerous opponent in a street confrontation. Yet I would never dare suggest that there is one technique I could show an ordinary guy that will work 100% of the time. Generally, doing martial arts is about attaining experience and common sense. Adaptable arts come in very useful, and having a good overall 'game' makes survival much more likely.

    That is why wing chun is good. If you have the time and the lifestyle to back it up (ie you can get away with bruises on your face etc) then MMA is usually a good idea. But most people dont have time to train 3 hours every day or dont want to do crazy amounts of conditioning and exercise etc

    So arts like wing chun etc are almost like quick fixes. It doesnt have all the answers, but gives students skills that come in useful in self defence type situations
     
  12. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I don't know why this false dichotomy is still perpetuated.

    Not everyone who trains in competitive/sport arts is the next olympic/mma prospect. There might be more conditioning involved as the sport arts can be more physically demaning, but no more than 'your average guy' can take... I've trained in Jitz along side fat, out of shape geezers in their late fifties for gods sake.
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    If you look at many of the earlier martial artist of note, most if not all were fighters. Some of them were also technicians.

    You can't look at the difference between self-defense and sport matches without first realizing the importance of relevant experience in a situation and environment.

    In a sport match where people can get knocked out as a primary method of winning, the mind and body must operate at a heightened sense of danger and awareness. In a real world situation where life is on the line, the same goes as one must be able to deal with from zero to 100% in an instant. Those with the experience in such situation THEN can take that experience of what works and what does not and apply that to their training methods.

    Without that experience, you are trusting on theory, not fact on what really works... period!

    Koyo always described severe technique as technique done three times faster. In a sport competition, like Thai boxing, it is more like two times faster. The point is that it is faster than normal training with 3 times faster for maiming or killing, 2 times faster for submission or knockout in competition.

    In preparation, environments and situations can be simulated. Sparring is a simulation and can help prepare. Live fire exercises are also a good simulation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  14. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Yeah and Wing Chun takes a fair amount of conditioning in some ways. After doing a good hour or two of chi sao my shoulders need a break. Standing doing Siu Lim Tao slowly over and over again, taking a little less than 10 minutes for each repetition my legs get very tired. Also as you're learning your forearms take a pretty hefty beating some days.

    Wing Chun is not a quick fix by any means.
     
  15. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    Out-of shape geezers in their late fifties? You've met my people! LOL

    As for the "dichotomy" you mentioned, I think its more true of competitve striking arts. Most older guys get to a point where they don't like to take a lot of hard shots, especially head shots, on a regular basis. Its just not healthy.

    Grappling arts are more adjustable to fit the situation. My older brother's a damn good wrestler. He's in his early sixties and we still go at it pretty hard on occasion.
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    That's because there is really no point to standing in snow plow stance intended to slow you down on the kiddy slopes. :p
     
  17. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Obvious troll is.... mod? :jawdrop:
     
  18. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    OK, you are one of the few to get that connection. My Chinese sifu never did. Maybe it's because Hong Kong doesn't produce a lot of skiers. I started skiing when I was about four, raced a bit as a teen and have the messed up legs to prove it. A couple of serious fractures, a blown out knee, and so on.

    Anyway, the snowplow is more than a way to reduce speed. It's a very easy way to give a beginner stability. And when you shift your weight to one side, that ski bites into the snow and initiates a turn. It's not so different in WC. The stance gives you stability and helps you "root". And like the beginning skier's snowplow, it serves as a transitional position you move through when turning. I better stop now before I get started comparing how in WC you track your opponent's centerline and the way a skier orients himself facing the fall line. Oh and there's aggressive pole planting that's very much like punching with a turn... well you get the drift!
     
  19. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Nor, in fairness, very smart. Most older guys get to a point where they're wise enough to realise that asking to get hit in the head repeatedly is not a good idea.
     
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The differences are many, but typically not what are talked about by people going on about a difference. The difference is not in "deadly techniques", but as someone said earlier, the difference is in the intention and pressure. H2H combat (I prefer that to self defence, I think self defence really refers to the non-combat skills) typically starts and stays at a shorter range than sports/match fighting, at a range somewhere between striking and clinching. Now yes, this is the Wing Chun trapping range, but this doesn't necessarily validate Wing Chun trapping, because once you add intention and pressure you realise that the window of opportunity for trapping is very small. This is however why so many TMAs place such a heavy emphasis on hand fighting skills.
     

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